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Old 04-25-2005, 06:42 PM   #4521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Sid
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...td/4480421.stm

Ferguson makes me laugh these days, he's losing the plot and coming up with every excuse in the world to stay away from one fact.....his team isn't as good as it used to be, and he just doesn't have the same impact on his players anymore.
Losing the plot? Far from it mate. The fact is, we should have had some blatant penalties in the last few games and didn't get them. No big deal though. It happens. If you expect Alex Ferguson or any manager in fact to come out public and say his team isn't as good as it used to be then I think it's you that is losing the plot.
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Old 04-25-2005, 06:45 PM   #4522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuzzE
Arsenal ended up winning 1-0, decent game i suppose, Reyes probably should have had a hat-trick and Robbie Keane really should have equalised.
I bet my brother £20 at the start of the season that Alan Smith would out score Jose Reyes this season. I think Reyes is one up on him right now. I still think Smith will beat him. Reyes could play every minute for the rest of the season and he still won't score another goal. They should ship him off to Valladolid or Betis or something asap. Real Madrid? Kid is having a bubble.
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Old 04-25-2005, 06:53 PM   #4523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
Losing the plot? Far from it mate. The fact is, we should have had some blatant penalties in the last few games and didn't get them. No big deal though. It happens. If you expect Alex Ferguson or any manager in fact to come out public and say his team isn't as good as it used to be then I think it's you that is losing the plot.
That wasn't a penalty against Newcastle for sure. I haven't kept tabs on United recently, but suffice to say, if you should've had penalties and didn't get them....its about time.

Also, I never said he should come out and say his team isn't as good as it used to be, I'm just saying he's coming up with every excuse in the book to try and hide the fact that you aren't as good.

I do think he's losing the plot, with the resources United have and the team they have, they should not have had as bad a season as they are having, and Ferguson is become a bigger whiner than he's ever been. Not to mention he has been fairly tactically inept at times this season, his simple belief is that to win games you've got to shove 5 strikers on the pitch, and it hasn't worked.
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Old 04-25-2005, 07:05 PM   #4524
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That was a blatant penalty against Newcastle. He gave us a free kick for tugging on Alan Smith outside the box mintues later and there was nowhere near as much contact. Same ref also didn't give us a blatant penalty against Chelsea in the Carling Cup at the Bridge (should have had another at OT too). Ferguson is saying since Rooney's dive against Arsenal, we ain't been getting shit because of it. It's clearly mind games but he has a point. I wouldn't say he has been tactically inept, more like our players haven't performed when needed. Aside from Ferdinand, Heinze, Ronaldo and Rooney (and probably Smith when he has played), all the players need to have a closer look at themselves.
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Old 04-25-2005, 08:45 PM   #4525
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just sign Andy Johnson, you will get loads of penalties then
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Old 04-25-2005, 09:20 PM   #4526
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Refs have realised that Ronaldo is a diving cunt, otherwise you'd have more penatlies.
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Old 04-25-2005, 11:10 PM   #4527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
That was a blatant penalty against Newcastle. He gave us a free kick for tugging on Alan Smith outside the box mintues later and there was nowhere near as much contact. Same ref also didn't give us a blatant penalty against Chelsea in the Carling Cup at the Bridge (should have had another at OT too). Ferguson is saying since Rooney's dive against Arsenal, we ain't been getting shit because of it
Zees sings even zemzelves out over ze course of ze zeazon [/RBF's Wenger impression]
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:04 AM   #4528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazz
Refs have realised that Ronaldo is a diving cunt, otherwise you'd have more penatlies.
What he said.
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:13 AM   #4529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Sid

I do think he's losing the plot, with the resources United have and the team they have, they should not have had as bad a season as they are having, and Ferguson is become a bigger whiner than he's ever been. Not to mention he has been fairly tactically inept at times this season, his simple belief is that to win games you've got to shove 5 strikers on the pitch, and it hasn't worked.
A bad season. They'd lost 2 games in the league before their recent bad run. One of those on the first day of the season to Chelsea when United had a starting 11's worth of international players out.

Chelsea being so brilliant has made everyone look bad. Any normal year, Arsenal and Manchester United's league records would have them pushing for the title.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:36 AM   #4530
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Originally Posted by El Capitano Gatisto
A bad season. They'd lost 2 games in the league before their recent bad run. One of those on the first day of the season to Chelsea when United had a starting 11's worth of international players out.

Chelsea being so brilliant has made everyone look bad. Any normal year, Arsenal and Manchester United's league records would have them pushing for the title.
I know what you're saying but if Chelsea raise the bar Arsenal and Man U have to follow. Its all relative to Chelsea nowadays. Being good enough to win a championship last season doesn't exactly mean shit when your 15 points behind Chelsea this season.
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:00 AM   #4531
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Fergie could have spent his money more wisely IMO, he didn't plan on buying Rooney till this summer originally, and it was only Newcastle's attempt to sign him that changed that.

So how come he didn't spend any of that £27 million he had last summer on other players in positions he needed them, namely a centre back and another central midfielder.

Also, to think that he was going to go through this season with just Saha, Smith and RvN attacking is stupid, considering just how much they have needed Rooney.

Fergie bollocksed this season up for himself.

Likewise with Wenger, he hasn't seemed to have built his team like he could have, if he has an 'unbeatable' team last season why not get a couple of players in where back-up is needed and keep going. Surely the board would have given him a little bit of money to help them stay the best in the country, he must have known that Chelsea were going to be a very serious threat.

We maye have been great this season, but I think it was the summer signing by the other two that mattered, if Arsenal really didn't have any money then fair enough, but United certainly did and they weren't going to use it.
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:05 AM   #4532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packt up
I know what you're saying but if Chelsea raise the bar Arsenal and Man U have to follow. Its all relative to Chelsea nowadays. Being good enough to win a championship last season doesn't exactly mean shit when your 15 points behind Chelsea this season.
Exactly.

Man for man, United have as good a side as Chelsea, but they are not playing anything like they should. I've seen United play brilliantly once this season. They've had good games, but aside from the Arsenal game, I don't remember seeing them playing exceptionally. They've had great individual performances at times, but as a TEAM, they are lacking. The very fact that they have gone on this shit run indicates that.

Ok, they've got to the FA Cup Final and they are third in the league. They hardly excelled in the Champions League, and they haven't been great in the league, I think United themselves would say they've had a bad season.

As for injuries, Chelsea have had shit loads of injuries and have coped, Arsenal have had shit loads of injuries and coped fairly well, injuries are always an easy excuse for sides not playing well. Liverpool have had loads of injuries this season, but the simple fact is, the replacements are not good enough, and thats down to the manager to sort out.
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:07 AM   #4533
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Also, I find it funny that Harry Redknapp has said "I Won't Be Leaving Southampton, even if they go down"

Think we've heard things like that before...
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:15 AM   #4534
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of course he won't, who else will have him?
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:31 AM   #4535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packt up
I know what you're saying but if Chelsea raise the bar Arsenal and Man U have to follow. Its all relative to Chelsea nowadays. Being good enough to win a championship last season doesn't exactly mean shit when your 15 points behind Chelsea this season.
Yeah, they have to follow and undoubtedly they will, but United were effectively behind in the title race from their first 5 matches, when they gave themselves a large gap to chase. There was little they could do about that with the injuries, Ferdinand's suspension etc. that afflicted the side.

Chelsea's record this season will be the best ever seen, probably, in terms of points and especially goals conceded. Three teams simply cannot have that kind of form in one season, and Chelsea will struggle to repeat it next year.

The delaying of the Chelsea trip to Old Trafford also was a big factor, because if it had taken place in January when United were in brilliant form and had a reasonable hope of catching Chelsea, it could have been a different story.
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:34 AM   #4536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazz
Fergie could have spent his money more wisely IMO, he didn't plan on buying Rooney till this summer originally, and it was only Newcastle's attempt to sign him that changed that.

So how come he didn't spend any of that £27 million he had last summer on other players in positions he needed them, namely a centre back and another central midfielder.

Also, to think that he was going to go through this season with just Saha, Smith and RvN attacking is stupid, considering just how much they have needed Rooney.

Fergie bollocksed this season up for himself.

Likewise with Wenger, he hasn't seemed to have built his team like he could have, if he has an 'unbeatable' team last season why not get a couple of players in where back-up is needed and keep going. Surely the board would have given him a little bit of money to help them stay the best in the country, he must have known that Chelsea were going to be a very serious threat.

We maye have been great this season, but I think it was the summer signing by the other two that mattered, if Arsenal really didn't have any money then fair enough, but United certainly did and they weren't going to use it.
Ferguson had no way of knowing that Van Nistelrooy would get injured for 3 months, and not continue his unbelievable scoring record for United, or that Saha would basically spend the entire year out with various knee injuries.

Fact is, their problem hasn't been in midfield or defence, but their strikers. The goals scored column tells the story, and the amount of games United should have won by 3, 4 or 5 goals, given the chances they had, is ridiculous. If they'd won those games, they'd be ahead of Chelsea.

The boys on the pitch didn't take the chances they got. Not Ferguson's fault.
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Old 04-26-2005, 11:03 AM   #4537
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Bollocks, you know it, you need four fit strikers or you are asking for it, you have to anticipate two strikers being out at once, three is unlucky, but you have to anticapte two. Without Rooney they were relying on the others being fit.

RvN has a year or two years out the game with an injury, and Fergie thinks that he will never get injured again?

Bore off mate, Fergie fucked it up.
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Old 04-26-2005, 11:26 AM   #4538
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Don't be stupid. 3 strikers is enough, especially considering they only play one main striker anyway. You only need 4 if you're playing 2 up, United don't. Smith and Rooney can fill in at midfield or drop deeper, Saha and RVN are both adept at playing up on their own.

Seriously, you do talk some shite at times.
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Old 04-26-2005, 11:43 AM   #4539
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I don't think so at all, I am excluding Rooney from the list here as we are talking about if they didn't sign Rooney as they weren't going to originally. Saha was brought in because he was eligable for the Champions League and they desperatley needed a striker, he is nowhere near good enough for Man United. Smith is always likely to get some suspensions, Fergie was originally going to go into the season with three strikers, and hope they could all suite the 1 up front and at least two were always available.

I think Fergie was going to take a big risk with only three attackers, Smith will never be good enough to be a lone striker I don't think, he can battle but he just isn't a target man, other then when O'Brien fouled him I can hardly remember being in a good position.

They were going to have two real target men, and Saha isn't good enough, plain and simple, so he relies on RvN to stay fit. When drogba is injured we still have Duff and Robben banging in goals because they can make the runs and finish it, Giggs and Ronaldo don't do it.

You surely must agree with this:
Saha isn't good enough and was brought in in January as a qucik fix solution
Fergie relies too heavily on RVN
Smith isn't a target man and was never going to suit the one up front
Bobby Robson going for Rooney was what brought Rooney to United this season.

The above four show Fergie fucked it right up, IMO.
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Old 04-26-2005, 12:00 PM   #4540
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I agree that Saha isn't good enough, and he'll be sacrificed this summer. United did rely a lot on RVN, but I don't know about too heavily. Most seasons they could expect Giggs and Scholes to weight in with a few goals, and Scholes can also play up front off someone else.

Smith is a target man, and he's extremely good at it. Brilliant in the air, brilliant first touch, ball sticks to him. He's excellent at winning and keeping possession. I am a big fan of his and I think if he was given a run in a side, he'd get 15-20 goals a season, easy.

And yes, Newcastle going for Rooney is why he ended up at United. However, I don't see how that is evidence of Fergie fucking anything up. I just don't see your logic here.
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Old 04-26-2005, 12:10 PM   #4541
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How can you not see the logic there? I thought it's blindingly obvious, because without Rooney they would been alot worse this season, and Fergie didn't want him for this season so it was due to Bobby Robson wanting him that he is even there right now. Whatsmore is that is he had a spare £27million floating around he could have brought in some more players.

I like Smithy, I think he will be great, but I don't think he is good as the lone striker, I have never seen hm as the type who can get his head to the ball or take it down, he has good control but I can't see him being able to shake off defenders.

I haven't seen too much of him this season, and I hate to base it on two games but the Newcatle game showed he isn't a great target man, and the game against Aston Villa on the 28th December is the time I realised he should be feeding a striker, and he was good at moving the ball around, they should play Giggs and Ronaldo wide, and Keane, Scholes and either Smith or Rooney as the centre midfielders but with Smith and Rooney playing extremley attacking, and either RvN or Rooney up front.

And to not think Fergie relies on RvN too much is stupid, as like I am going to have to say yet again they didn't intend on having Rooney this season.
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Old 04-26-2005, 12:54 PM   #4542
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Dazz - We had Forlan at the start of the season as 4th striker before any Rooney bid. Once he was in, Diego was gone.

Also, we didn't have £27 million to spend in the summer. We had the £7 million for Smith and £6.7 million for Henize. Rooney was this summer's budget. If there was no Rooney this season, there would be nobody at all.

Again, we haven't really had a bad season. Chelsea have just been the dogs bollocks.
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Old 04-26-2005, 01:12 PM   #4543
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BTW isn't Forlan like the top scorer in Spain. Does Dazz still think that he's crap?
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Old 04-26-2005, 01:13 PM   #4544
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I don't see your logic Dazz because you're claiming Fergie fucked up by buying a player he should have bought.

At worst, you could say it turned out he was lucky to have signed Rooney, since the other lads got injured, but saying he "fucked up" by making a good signing is a bit ridiculous.

As Rob said, they had Forlan, so I'm assuming Fergie thought his strikers could struggle on, since there was nothing really wrong in the goals department last season for United, it was their defence. They strengthened their defence with Heinze, and their attack with Smith, and even those two in United's squad from last season looked like very good additions at the time.

Every point you are making is with the absolute benefit of hindsight. With hindsight, if Rio Ferdinand hadn't missed that drugs test a year and a half ago, I think Manchester United would have been league champions last season. But that's the way things go.
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Old 04-26-2005, 01:33 PM   #4545
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Come on, it was clear that Fergie was never going to play Forlan this season, why not name Bellion too. Mine isn't in hindsight, it's when you consider likely outcomes, players are inevitabally going to get injured, especially someone who has had lengthy injuries in the past.

Fergie not signing another centre back in January showed again that it's him fucking things up why they lose the title.

And you clearly don't understand what I mean about Rooney, ECG, I am saying that United wouldn't have got him this season if Newcastle hadn't gone for him, I.E Fergie didn't want Rooney for this season, yet he has been invaluable, is it really that hard to understand ECG, That Fergie didn't want him this season, he was going to wait a year for no reason.

Rob - Saying no-one takes United over before the next season starts, I am sure you are going to make some signing, you will still have money earnt through prize money and season ticket revenue, TV deals ect. To say it's your whole of this seasons budget is down right stupid.

legendkiller, where have I ever said Forlan was shit? Find me a quote or jog on.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:00 PM   #4546
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David Gill (I think that's his name) has been quoted as saying Rooney was this coming season's transfer budget, Rob's not exaggerating (for once )

That said people like Saha and Kleberson will most likely be shipped out, so the money will most likely come from there. There's also a chance this fucking takeover saga will have a conclusion sometime before 2945 so there might be some spending money there also.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:01 PM   #4547
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You're talking stupid. Of course itis hindsight: there's no way you can legislate for two of your top strikers to spend huge amounts of time injured, throughout the whole season. It'd be fucking stupidity to buy players based on the idea that two of them in one position might get injured for several months at a time.

RVN having a knee problem really doesn't indicate at all that he would have injured his calf. Most players these days recover fully from crucriate ligament injuries and don't see a problem with the knee again.

You always take me down these meaningless, moronic alleyways of football discussion, Dazz.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:06 PM   #4548
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I have to say I'm with ECG on this whole Rooney thing Dazz just wtf is your point? That Fergie didn't want him but bought him anyway and thats fucked them up?? Yet you also say that he's been great this season so seem to contradict yourself.

I rate Smith he was doing great earlier this season then got dropped pretty much as soon as Rooney got fit which was unfortunate. He's not the most natural goalscorer but as has been mentioned before he's a good target man and certainly good enough for the Man U squad - even if I think he is a cock. Saha on the other hand should move on. Forlan was shit at Man U and anyone saying otherwise is delerious. He can be a good player but to be honest I haven't seen him play in Spain or Argentina or wherever he was before so I can only judge him on his Man U performances where he was crap.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:14 PM   #4549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Capitano Gatisto
Yeah, they have to follow and undoubtedly they will, but United were effectively behind in the title race from their first 5 matches, when they gave themselves a large gap to chase. There was little they could do about that with the injuries, Ferdinand's suspension etc. that afflicted the side.

Chelsea's record this season will be the best ever seen, probably, in terms of points and especially goals conceded. Three teams simply cannot have that kind of form in one season, and Chelsea will struggle to repeat it next year.

The delaying of the Chelsea trip to Old Trafford also was a big factor, because if it had taken place in January when United were in brilliant form and had a reasonable hope of catching Chelsea, it could have been a different story.
I know Chelsea have been great this season but to be honest they are such a great side I honestly don't know that they will find it any more difficult next year. Effectively they've won this season without a world class striker at a canter. You can argue all you want about Gudjohnsen and Drogba being good but I don't think anyone (including Dazz) could call them World Class. If they had a Shevchenko or someone in that veinm and lets be honest they could afford them then next season could be just as comfortable. They have already said that they will improve the squad further with Geremi and Parker probably on the list of people out, add Gerard and a top class striker and how any team is going to touch them is beyond my reckoning.

And I think the injuries excuse is branded around too much by everyone. Even Chelsea have had their injuries this year so saying Man U lost it purely because of injury to RVN or whoever is akin to saying Arsenal lost it because they didn't have Gilberto or Campbell fit for long periods. Nice to say but at the end of the day even with them I doubt either Man U or Arsenal would have got close to Chelsea this season.

Also apart from the RVN and Saha what bad injuries have Man U had this season? This isn't a diss just I really can't remember
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:24 PM   #4550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packt up
I know Chelsea have been great this season but to be honest they are such a great side I honestly don't know that they will find it any more difficult next year. Effectively they've won this season without a world class striker at a canter. You can argue all you want about Gudjohnsen and Drogba being good but I don't think anyone (including Dazz) could call them World Class. If they had a Shevchenko or someone in that veinm and lets be honest they could afford them then next season could be just as comfortable. They have already said that they will improve the squad further with Geremi and Parker probably on the list of people out, add Gerard and a top class striker and how any team is going to touch them is beyond my reckoning.

And I think the injuries excuse is branded around too much by everyone. Even Chelsea have had their injuries this year so saying Man U lost it purely because of injury to RVN or whoever is akin to saying Arsenal lost it because they didn't have Gilberto or Campbell fit for long periods. Nice to say but at the end of the day even with them I doubt either Man U or Arsenal would have got close to Chelsea this season.

Also apart from the RVN and Saha what bad injuries have Man U had this season? This isn't a diss just I really can't remember
I don't think Chelsea will find it so easy next season. The nucleus of that side has been around a while, so although they have always been very good players, they've come together this season in a superb run of form. I really don't think they'll keep that run of form up.

Think back to Arsenal of last season and the first half of this season, and it was tough to imagine them being beaten by anyone this season, never mind finishing to the order of 11 points behind Chelsea (as the case may be). No team is invincible, and they can only field 11 players. If they bring in big stars, it might upset their crucial team spirit and work ethic.

For example, as their form for England clearly shows, Lampard and Gerrard cannot really function in the same midfield together. They both do the same job, effectively, and one has to surrender to the other for the other to be effective.

Added to that, teams will figure out a way to play Chelsea. It always happens.

Not saying they won't still be a great team, or that they won't win the league, just that they will find things a lot harder next season.

And I never said injuries were an excuse for Manchester United, I said their problem was scoring goals in matches they should have won by miles. I was just making the point to Dazz that Ferguson couldn't have imagined two of his main strikers would end up injured for long stretches.

At the very start of the season, United had Heinze and Ronaldo at the Olympics, Ferdinand suspended, Rooney injured, Scholes injured, Van Nistelrooy injured, Saha injured and numerous other problems. They really handicapped themselves by having a very slow start to the season which meant they were always playing catch-up.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:27 PM   #4551
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Geremi and Smertin will go, Parker will stay.

Pact Up, you misinterpreted what I said about Rooney, I am saying that Fergie **WOULD** have royally fucked it up by waiting until the end of this season to get Rooney. He has been great, but he is still meant to be at Everton until the end of this season, without Rooney I am prepared to say that United's season would have been a disaster.

ECG, you might not think you will have two injured strikers, but you do have to be prepared for it, Arsenal have got Henry, Bergkamp, Reyes, Van Persie and Allideire, they have sufficient back-up. United had people who weren't performing such as Forlan and Bellion as their other back up. Without Rooney this season they would have had two really good strikers, and three average ones (if Forlan had stayed). That's the difference, that United din't have enough back up if their best strikers got injured.

I cannot believe no one see's this Rooney arguement though, Fergie didn't fucking want him this season, do you lot not fucking understand something so simple??!! It was Newcastle wanting him that made them get him, for fuck sake he wasn't going to be there this season, meaning Fergie would have fucked things up entriely like he tried to do. He should be kissing Bobby Robson's wrinkley white-haired arse right now.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:32 PM   #4552
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Ridiculous.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:34 PM   #4553
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:foc:
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Old 04-26-2005, 04:45 PM   #4554
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How exactly do you know how United would have played without Wayne Rooney? Smith would have got a longer run in the team, RVN might not have gotten injured and Forlan could have had the same run of form he is on in Spain for us. You just don't know.

As for back up strikers, we didn't have enough back up LAST season, nevermind this season.
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Old 04-26-2005, 04:51 PM   #4555
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RvN would have got injured regardless, Forlan was never going to be given more of a chance from Fergie, alright I don't *KNOW* but it's my opinion, and I am sure no one can deny it, that Wayne Rooney has made a huge impact on the team, and has done a shitload for them, him,Keane and Heinze have been United's three best players, Ronaldo fourth I'd say.
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Old 04-26-2005, 04:57 PM   #4556
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YES, beat the sheep to pretty much guarantee safety
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Old 04-26-2005, 05:13 PM   #4557
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PSV were very unlucky to lose that game, let alone by 2 goals.
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Old 04-26-2005, 05:17 PM   #4558
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PSV are twats, Park is fucking awful, absolute rubbish. Has anyone told Van Bommell that shooting right at the keeper is one of the hardest ways of scoring a goal.

At the start of the game I said to my mate I wish I stuck a few quid on it being 2-0 to Milan, needless to say I was annoyed when the final whistle went.
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Old 04-26-2005, 05:23 PM   #4559
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I don't mind about getting Rooney as early as we did. I think the plan was to wait so his price would drop, though Newcastle fucked that up for us.

Same with Ronaldo, we wanted him to stay at Sporting until this season. It's just how things work out. Like when Fergie went in for David Hirst, only he wasn't for sale so we got Cantona instead. Just luck, I suppose.

I disagree on Saha being shit though. He showed promise early on until it turned out he is made of glass. I'd be glad to see the back of him but not because he's shit.
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Old 04-26-2005, 05:26 PM   #4560
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He's not shit, he's just not particularly great. Definitely not worth the money paid, and his place in the squad could be better used.

I think Kleberson is a great player, but we'll not see the best of him at Manchester United. He'll probably be out this summer. He'll be quality given a run in a side without injuries.
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