The WWE Future Endeavors Thread

[Destor]

whats a fair shot and why are people entitled to it

[GD]

Originally Posted by drave So direct your post at Nerfect? I didn't say anything related to your post. It was painfully obvious he was never going to cut it on the main roster anyway.

Nerfect and I are not on talking terms anymore

[drave]

Originally Posted by Darlene Nerfect and I are not on talking terms anymore

Then stop invoking his name, especially when it's not even related.

[XL]

What do you think the outcome would be if one of these dudes just turned up on AEW, no compete be damned?

WWE takes them to court for breaking contract. People start taking a look at the whole “independent contractor” deal? Is that a can of worms WWE want to open?

[screech]

Originally Posted by XL What do you think the outcome would be if one of these dudes just turned up on AEW, no compete be damned? WWE takes them to court for breaking contract. People start taking a look at the whole “independent contractor” deal? Is that a can of worms WWE want to open?

Part of me thinks it depends who it is. If it's a midcard guy? Maybe WWE won't bother. But if a bigger name gets cut on Monday and shows up on Dynamite Wednesday? That'd probably be an issue.

(This could all be bullshit and WWE could go after anyone who does that. But I feel like they "couldn't care less" if like, Lince Dorado popped up on Dynamite or Rampage in the next few days.)

[Bad News Gertner]

Originally Posted by drave Then stop invoking his name, especially when it's not even related.

She's a drama queen

[James Steele]

Originally Posted by XL What do you think the outcome would be if one of these dudes just turned up on AEW, no compete be damned? WWE takes them to court for breaking contract. People start taking a look at the whole “independent contractor” deal? Is that a can of worms WWE want to open?

The wrestler would go broke from the legal process and that's why they are fearful to challenge it.

[GD]

Originally Posted by Lord Gertner of TPWW She's a drama queen

Thanks for acknowledging me, King

[Fignuts]

Originally Posted by Destor whats a fair shot and why are people entitled to it

They're not.

I think the better argument is that when someone does start to gain momentum, WWE has a habit of cutting their legs out from under them for no apparent reason.

[Destor]

its a terrible habit of theirs. horrible booking and they do it all the time.

[GD]

Originally Posted by Fignuts They're not. I think the better argument is that when someone does start to gain momentum, WWE has a habit of cutting their legs out from under them for no apparent reason.

Agreed. Simply turrible.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by screech This is where I land on the issue too. If you cut someone because "you're not connecting with the crowd" or "creative has nothing for you" that's one thing. But to claim it's for budget cuts when you're making money hand over fist is, at the very least, shitty optics.

The company got shit all the time for not having anything for people. Or would be blamed for guys not connecting. If the WWE just came out and said “We don’t want you here anymore and it’s our prerogative who we pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to” people would still whinge.

I still don’t get the budget cut = they’re broke argument. Just because you can afford something doesn’t mean you have an expansive budget. Especially if you are trying to get elements of your business under control that would not necessarily be profitable if you were to lose major revenue streams.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by screech I thought he was presented well in NXT [mostly because of the entrance and his laaaddyyyy, but anyway]. But as soon as he stood across from Jeff Hardy on RAW and I realized they're kinda the same size, I knew he was done. Or at least, there was no chance of recapturing whatever he had that got him going in NXT.

Yeah, he was framed well in NXT. I agree with drave in that I was never on-board, but he just can’t be a big fish in a small pond up on the main roster.

There’s a case of the Mike Awesomes with him. Everyone who saw Awesome in ECW thought of him as a big guy. Then when he shows up in the WWF you realize that he looks smaller than Bradshaw.

I also wonder if there was a case of the Mike Bennetts with him too. I think Vince has a guy hyped to him as being so very much in the WWE mold. Then he sees them and is like “That’s it? That’s him?!”

[xrodmuc316]

Originally Posted by XL What do you think the outcome would be if one of these dudes just turned up on AEW, no compete be damned? WWE takes them to court for breaking contract. People start taking a look at the whole “independent contractor” deal? Is that a can of worms WWE want to open?

I think the issue is WWE is still paying them during those 90 days. That is why they keep their WWE Twitter handles until that 90 days are up. Logically I would rather keep getting paid and not have to pay legal fees.

That said, Brock Lesnar already won a court case over WWE's non compete clause, but he even said it cost him a lot of money. In his case, so what because he could make 10 times more in New Japan and UFC than his legal fees, but nobody else has that unique earning power to command $10-$15 million a year.

[Vastardikai]

Keith Lee and Karrion Kross got shitty gimmicks on the main roster? Yes, they did. But guess what? I know of one guy who had shittier gimmicks than both of them. I am talking about an Ex-Rugby Player. I am talking about his only personality quality was that he spoke 5 languages. I am talking about whatever the fuck that yodeling thing was.

And guess what? Cesaro's still around. He'll likely never be WWE Champion. He isn't the poster child of charisma. All of that said, he seems like one of the most universally liked guys in WWE, and he's versatile enough that he can be plugged into almost any spot and it works. Main Eventer needs some down time? Put him in a tag team with Cesaro. Heel needs to get his heat back? Put him in there with Cesaro. And Creative always seems to have something for him (apart from recently, but he did have a rather talked about bout with Walter recently). And he never seems to be on the list of people who might get cut. Talent plays a fairly big role, but I think attitude plays a bigger one.

[Destor]

Cesaro is a good hand. he gets the people he works with over.

[M-A-G]

Originally Posted by xrodmuc316 I think the issue is WWE is still paying them during those 90 days. That is why they keep their WWE Twitter handles until that 90 days are up. Logically I would rather keep getting paid and not have to pay legal fees. That said, Brock Lesnar already won a court case over WWE's non compete clause, but he even said it cost him a lot of money. In his case, so what because he could make 10 times more in New Japan and UFC than his legal fees, but nobody else has that unique earning power to command $10-$15 million a year.

Hey, this brings up a question and forgive me for my ignorance but are the talent required to have a Twitter account/handle while being a contracted talent? Because, you know, ew.

[Vastardikai]

Originally Posted by Destor Cesaro is a good hand. he gets the people he works with over.

There's always a place in the wrestling business for a good hand. He'll almost certainly be a trainer in the Performance Center after his WWE run is over.

I would argue that Big E is another example of attitude keeping someone around. He was just kind of there from his debut. They gave him the one big babyface run that fizzled. He was kind of just being used as a very buff jobber. He could have very easily been cut after he lost the IC title, but everyone seems to like him, as well. And he got another chance from there became part of one of the biggest draws in the WWE.

I am ultimately saying that having a good attitude in WWE can give you chances that having all the talent in the world won't.

[xrodmuc316]

Originally Posted by M-A-G Hey, this brings up a question and forgive me for my ignorance but are the talent required to have a Twitter account/handle while being a contracted talent? Because, you know, ew.

I don't think they "have to" have to, but I think it is strongly encouraged. Clearly some guys have way more freedom to post what they want than others.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect No one is crying poor. Having $200 million in spare cash doesn’t mean your budget is $200 million. Just because you are rolling in dough doesn’t mean streamlining your talent roster is inherently counterintuitive.

When "budget concerns" is a phrase used, the implication is that you're overspending. Again, you either shouldn't have thrown that money around to begin with, or you're using that as an excuse... and the money you "save" looks like extra in the coffers.

If the talent isn't that valuable to you, then don't throw that value out there. This isn't limited to this particular crop of cuts, or even this field.

You act as if folks are saying they should be spending every dime they're making. Not the point at all. However, using that $200 million example, if you're spending $50 million, you're still up $150 million. There isn't really a dire need to save that chunk of cash just to make it look better on paper. If you have it to spend, and contracted people on the promise of it, then you go "Whoops, I don't actually have the money to give you, bye!" then turn around and brag about making $200 million. That sounds like a crock of shit to the folks you just kicked to the curb. Especially to ones that don't even get the chance to see any supposed return on investment because you changed your mind on investing in them.

Instead, it sounds more like an empty excuse. Much like when people used the phrase "in this economy..." around the 2008 housing bubble burst, even when the job wasn't even tangentially connected to the mortgage crisis at all. "Budgetary concerns" is almost a corporate way of saying "I could pay you, but I don't feel like it because profit margins" in fewer words and trying to dress it up like it can't be helped even if it can.

One thing their change in hiring philosophy will hopefully eliminate is their need to warehouse people and waste their time and careers just so someone else can't have them that they've been doing for about two decades or so now. Small solace, but still a minuscule plus.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect I hate being pushed into the position where I am defending this company, but who is that perfect wrestler? I’m not saying the WWE doesn’t miss the boat on talent. They obviously do. But not everyone they miss is this giant missed opportunity either. I used to think that way, but it’s just so wrong. Most of the people being released do kind of fit that Flippy McKickpads description. Or they’re just the shits in the ring. There are people who do, somehow, get over in this environment. Drew McIntyre, the Street Profits, Bianca Belair. I would love for the WWE to be calibrated to my tastes as a fan. I’d love for it to lose the forced promos, terrible tropes and be booked like proper pro-wrestling. God knows I’m hungry for it. But people act as if it’s impossible to be good at your job in this environment.

Asking "who that perfect wrester" is basically just rode past the entire point of it being a hypothetical, can't-miss person that WWE would find a way to completely fuck up. It wasn't anyone in particular: they prob'ly don't exist. And if they did, I say again, WWE would likely fuck them up.

A thing I've said for years is that they are so intent on trying to find the next Hulk Hogan, that they'll overlook the next Rick Rudes, or Roddy Pipers, or a litany of other past top stars in their blind pursuit to not only find that cash cow figurehead, but somehow copy and paste them. That's not how any of that works, but it feels like nobody can tell Vince and company that.

I've also said that my decline in interest in WWE television started in the throes of the Smackdown Six era brand split. Smackdown had overtaken RAW in interest, ratings, match quality, and goddamn storytelling. It was done over time, and with talent that was supposedly for the most part subpar to who was on "the flagship". Heyman took that supposed chicken shit and made state fair quality chicken salad. And instead of having RAW do that same shit with the supposedly superior crop of talent, they instead just started poaching the people who were now over and have them appear on Monday nights and still put the same crummy effort into getting any of the stars they supposedly already had over. Nowadays, it's like they're mostly treating everyone like they're RAW talent from that era, and most of the NXT call-ups have been actively fucked with in one way or another at the transition if they even get called at all.

And being "the shits in the ring" is relative. Yes, I'm glad they got rid of the potentially lethal cancer that was Eva Marie again, but they still have Baron Corbin. Some of them were too new. Some of them never got an opportunity to be anything other than background bland. And the people who can and do stand out get meddled with. Again, something that happens most release cycles.

I'm actually not as excited about Steiner as I should be, because I'm just waiting for the punchline- that moment where they have someone that has future star written all over him, but somehow drop the boat and have him gone in the next eight months.

Overall, this isn't an indictment of the here and now. It's and ongoing gripe with WWE in general that has been happening for ages.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Destor whats a fair shot and why are people entitled to it

Sounds like the title of another book written by Whitey McSportsfan.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Vastardikai There's always a place in the wrestling business for a good hand. He'll almost certainly be a trainer in the Performance Center after his WWE run is over. I would argue that Big E is another example of attitude keeping someone around. He was just kind of there from his debut. They gave him the one big babyface run that fizzled. He was kind of just being used as a very buff jobber. He could have very easily been cut after he lost the IC title, but everyone seems to like him, as well. And he got another chance from there became part of one of the biggest draws in the WWE. I am ultimately saying that having a good attitude in WWE can give you chances that having all the talent in the world won't.

Even with that, though, it wasn't from lack of trying to fuck him up.

He was another one who was over in NXT even in that short stay. But they totally dropped the 5 count gimmick on the main roster presumably because they didn't want to educate fans on who the fuck King Kong Bundy was (much like never mentioning the goddamn Freebird Rule except in the ingredients list of the New Day t-shirt cereal box). They just made him mute and stuck him with Ziggles for zero reason, stripping out what was already working.

Then, even later, there was the point in time at the beginning of New Day where all three of them were on the chopping block because the bullshit forced babyface thing wasn't working, and they had to beg Vince to turn heel, which was exactly what they needed to start down the road to where they are now.

Even with someone like Big E, and him being an okay dude, it seems really hard for the company to get out of their own goddamn way.

[Fignuts]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott Sounds like the title of another book written by Whitey McSportsfan.

Awful comparison.

[Destor]

ill buy 10 copies

[Vastardikai]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott Even with that, though, it wasn't from lack of trying to fuck him up. He was another one who was over in NXT even in that short stay. But they totally dropped the 5 count gimmick on the main roster presumably because they didn't want to educate fans on who the fuck King Kong Bundy was (much like never mentioning the goddamn Freebird Rule except in the ingredients list of the New Day t-shirt cereal box). They just made him mute and stuck him with Ziggles for zero reason, stripping out what was already working. Then, even later, there was the point in time at the beginning of New Day where all three of them were on the chopping block because the bullshit forced babyface thing wasn't working, and they had to beg Vince to turn heel, which was exactly what they needed to start down the road to where they are now. Even with someone like Big E, and him being an okay dude, it seems really hard for the company to get out of their own goddamn way.

No one should expect that anything that works at NXT and their small, niche crowd will translate to working on the bigger, mainstream audience. Things that worked in NXT: Adam Rose and Emma's bad dancer gimmick.

They dropped the 5 count gimmick because they didn't need an awkward guy ripping off King Kong Bundy at the time. They need a guy to be muscle for Dolph Ziggler. And he was a massive dude who could fill that role.

As for your last point, this sounds like bitching because they gave Steve Austin "The Ringmaster" gimmick off the bat and he suggested tweaks to make it work. This is the thing about attitude I'm talking about: They could have very easily just bitched about the shitty hand they were dealt and they'd have been released. Instead, they believed in themselves and what they were doing, saw what wasn't working, and suggested tweaks to make it work.

That's not a failure on Creative's end. That is what separates the folks who are forgotten about from the biggest stars in wrestling. These folks would rather piss and moan than fight and prove that they want this shit. Sometimes that means suggesting changes. Sometimes, that means learning how to fucking yodel.

[Sepholio]

Yodelayheehoo

[M-A-G]

Originally Posted by xrodmuc316 I don't think they "have to" have to, but I think it is strongly encouraged. Clearly some guys have way more freedom to post what they want than others.

I think I'd rather work in 2000-era WCW than be pressured into using Twitter.

[Sepholio]

I don't even have to think about that. I'll take a finger poke of doom from David Arquette.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott When "budget concerns" is a phrase used, the implication is that you're overspending. Again, you either shouldn't have thrown that money around to begin with, or you're using that as an excuse... and the money you "save" looks like extra in the coffers. If the talent isn't that valuable to you, then don't throw that value out there. This isn't limited to this particular crop of cuts, or even this field. You act as if folks are saying they should be spending every dime they're making. Not the point at all. However, using that $200 million example, if you're spending $50 million, you're still up $150 million. There isn't really a dire need to save that chunk of cash just to make it look better on paper. If you have it to spend, and contracted people on the promise of it, then you go "Whoops, I don't actually have the money to give you, bye!" then turn around and brag about making $200 million. That sounds like a crock of shit to the folks you just kicked to the curb. Especially to ones that don't even get the chance to see any supposed return on investment because you changed your mind on investing in them. Instead, it sounds more like an empty excuse. Much like when people used the phrase "in this economy..." around the 2008 housing bubble burst, even when the job wasn't even tangentially connected to the mortgage crisis at all. "Budgetary concerns" is almost a corporate way of saying "I could pay you, but I don't feel like it because profit margins" in fewer words and trying to dress it up like it can't be helped even if it can. One thing their change in hiring philosophy will hopefully eliminate is their need to warehouse people and waste their time and careers just so someone else can't have them that they've been doing for about two decades or so now. Small solace, but still a minuscule plus. Asking "who that perfect wrester" is basically just rode past the entire point of it being a hypothetical, can't-miss person that WWE would find a way to completely fuck up. It wasn't anyone in particular: they prob'ly don't exist. And if they did, I say again, WWE would likely fuck them up. A thing I've said for years is that they are so intent on trying to find the next Hulk Hogan, that they'll overlook the next Rick Rudes, or Roddy Pipers, or a litany of other past top stars in their blind pursuit to not only find that cash cow figurehead, but somehow copy and paste them. That's not how any of that works, but it feels like nobody can tell Vince and company that. I've also said that my decline in interest in WWE television started in the throes of the Smackdown Six era brand split. Smackdown had overtaken RAW in interest, ratings, match quality, and goddamn storytelling. It was done over time, and with talent that was supposedly for the most part subpar to who was on "the flagship". Heyman took that supposed chicken shit and made state fair quality chicken salad. And instead of having RAW do that same shit with the supposedly superior crop of talent, they instead just started poaching the people who were now over and have them appear on Monday nights and still put the same crummy effort into getting any of the stars they supposedly already had over. Nowadays, it's like they're mostly treating everyone like they're RAW talent from that era, and most of the NXT call-ups have been actively fucked with in one way or another at the transition if they even get called at all. And being "the shits in the ring" is relative. Yes, I'm glad they got rid of the potentially lethal cancer that was Eva Marie again, but they still have Baron Corbin. Some of them were too new. Some of them never got an opportunity to be anything other than background bland. And the people who can and do stand out get meddled with. Again, something that happens most release cycles. I'm actually not as excited about Steiner as I should be, because I'm just waiting for the punchline- that moment where they have someone that has future star written all over him, but somehow drop the boat and have him gone in the next eight months. Overall, this isn't an indictment of the here and now. It's and ongoing gripe with WWE in general that has been happening for ages.

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think that making $200 million means you’re instantly justified in spending $50 million. I’m still at a loss as to how cutting people for budget concerns means you’re worried about your overall profits or how they’re even connected. I’m not trying to be difficult. The richest guy I know spends as little money as he can. His budget isn’t necessarily bigger just because he makes more than most other people.

[Mr. Nerfect]

With guys like Cesaro, it’s not only about attitude and talent, but it’s also about how you fit into things. I half-way expect a guy like Shelton Benjamin to be cut, but that he constantly escapes isn’t too surprising either. There are backstage factors, how you help younger guys, and just being the right guy in the right spot for the right reasons.

Some guys get cut because the only use for them would be, hypothetically, the main event. But when the company decides they don’t want to use you there, there’s nothing for you.

[XL]

I’m not entirely sure there’s more than maybe 5 acts on the roster that you’d miss if they were cut. Maybe that’s the benefit of “pushing the brand over the talent”?

You could go through the roster 3 times over and cut people that wouldn’t be missed; Jaxson Ryker, Elias, Corbin, Ziggler off the top of my head. Would you really miss Owens if he doesn’t re-up? Rollins? New Day? Crews? Cesaro? Nakamura? There’s are guys in there that I like but I’m not sure I’d miss them. I think that’s what sits awkwardly with a release like Keith Lee; they barely tried and there’s guys still there that they have tried everything with to little pay off. They seem like they wanted to make something of Ryker, it was never going to happen, it didn’t, and now he’s nowhere to be seen. The deal with B-Fab really sucks too. Imagine signing a new contract with more money - a number the company decided days before - then being told you’re being cut due to budget cuts. What happened in 3 days? If they don’t think they needed her with Hit Row why go through all that? Can you imagine the high of “I’m on the main roster” to “I don’t have a job”?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by XL I’m not entirely sure there’s more than maybe 5 acts on the roster that you’d miss if they were cut. Maybe that’s the benefit of “pushing the brand over the talent”? You could go through the roster 3 times over and cut people that wouldn’t be missed; Jaxson Ryker, Elias, Corbin, Ziggler off the top of my head. Would you really miss Owens if he doesn’t re-up? Rollins? New Day? Crews? Cesaro? Nakamura? There’s are guys in there that I like but I’m not sure I’d miss them. I think that’s what sits awkwardly with a release like Keith Lee; they barely tried and there’s guys still there that they have tried everything with to little pay off. They seem like they wanted to make something of Ryker, it was never going to happen, it didn’t, and now he’s nowhere to be seen. The deal with B-Fab really sucks too. Imagine signing a new contract with more money - a number the company decided days before - then being told you’re being cut due to budget cuts. What happened in 3 days? If they don’t think they needed her with Hit Row why go through all that? Can you imagine the high of “I’m on the main roster” to “I don’t have a job”?

Wrestling needs very few people. Honestly, the same can be said for almost any promotion in the world. But it is true in the WWE. But I’m not sure it’s entirely a new thing either. It’s been that way in wrestling forever. You do your thing, then you go away and you’re not doing it anymore. People will act like the show won’t go on without you, but it always does.

I don’t know what went on with B-Fab. She wasn’t a very good wrestler (she was really new). Did she have an attitude problem? Did she have some problematic stuff in her social media? Was she someone else that didn’t want to get vaccinated? There are plenty of factors that may or may not have contributed.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I’m agreeing with you, by the way. I wasn’t adding that to be argumentative. I often think about who isn’t expendable and the list is very, very small. But even if you got rid of a Roman Reigns, they’d just find someone else.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think that making $200 million means you’re instantly justified in spending $50 million. I’m still at a loss as to how cutting people for budget concerns means you’re worried about your overall profits or how they’re even connected. I’m not trying to be difficult. The richest guy I know spends as little money as he can. His budget isn’t necessarily bigger just because he makes more than most other people.

I'm going to ask you then in the most simplistic way possible:

Say that you, personally, were the CEO of a business, and you hired exactly three employees (making the total folks working for the company four). Then, you fired two of those three employees... not for performance issues or discipinary actions or anything, but "budgetary concerns". Then, you proceeded to publicly post that your company increased its profits year on year.

You're telling me that you can't possibly see how that looks really, really bad, especially to the two people you've shown the door? You don't see how that could be interpreted as you being a greedy dickhead in any way? You can't fathom, at all, how saying "hey, we made multiple truckloads of money" right after literally telling half of your company that you don't have the money to spend to keep them, are exceptionally bad optics to pretty much everyone but you and/or any other CEO who thinks like you or any shareholders you may be trying to appease?

A profit margin and a budget is not as divorced as you seem to think it is. If you made more money, you could spend more money. Again, not saying you burn up every dime of profit you project, but you have in your power the ability to increase that budget at the expense of not making as much profit as you would have. If you made less money, or heaven forbid actually in the hole, you trim the fat. But if you could not stay profitable without letting those people go, you really aren't profitable to begin with. You're only buying time until that bubble bursts. This isn't limited to this hypothetical, or even to WWE. You'll eventually run out of folks to fire, assets to sell, and corners to cut just so that your financials look good in the end.


:sigh: Fine. We are going to have to disagree on this one by an exceptionally wide gulf.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Vastardikai No one should expect that anything that works at NXT and their small, niche crowd will translate to working on the bigger, mainstream audience. Things that worked in NXT: Adam Rose and Emma's bad dancer gimmick. They dropped the 5 count gimmick because they didn't need an awkward guy ripping off King Kong Bundy at the time. They need a guy to be muscle for Dolph Ziggler. And he was a massive dude who could fill that role.

However, there's a difference between things not translating and not even fucking trying. If you recall, Adam Rose was a Vince call... he was over in NXT doing the Leo Kreuger shell-shocked crazy man shtick. He was another one of those "let's change fucking everything" guys. And apparently, Vince got bored with his own creation, much like he did back in the day with Drew McIntyre. Remember, Drew came in with PERSONAL promo hype from Vince himself and won the IC title in pretty short order, then that was done relatively quickly.

Meanwhile, while still in NXT, Baron Corbin got LESS OVER with time, because once they tried to move him beyond the timed squash matches, he got really exposed at being the shits. Even with the active disdain, they called him up as-is, and then the whole world got to see how shit he was.

Divorcing how anyone may feel about the guys, EVERYTHING about Enzo and Cass was hitting and they didn't need to change a goddamn thing from the "niche" NXT crowd. Roman Reigns' pre-Shield repackaging was essentially the prototype of what he is right now, but he was nowhere near ready for it. Bray Wyatt: cult leader extrordanare worked fine. Kevin Steen and Samoa Joe were basically the same things they've always been.

Imagine if they gave every call-up a fair shake like that instead of instantly trying to make random folks change shit immediately.

So back to Big E being Dolph's heater. They could have chose plenty of folks already on the main roster for that. They could have picked a call up from NXT who didn't have anything to them yet. Instead they took a guy who was at least over there, and didn't even try with him doing his own thing.

Its almost a coin flip if they're going to either leave someone alone, or try to fuck with them without even trying what was working for them. Using your Steve Austin comparison, it would be like he was full on beer drinking, middle finger, stunner, DTA "Rattlesnake" in NXT, and THEN for the main roster call up, they put The Ringmaster gimmick on him without even trying what was already working... and then when that went ass up, it's somehow because Steve wasn't trying.

[xrodmuc316]

Originally Posted by Vastardikai No one should expect that anything that works at NXT and their small, niche crowd will translate to working on the bigger, mainstream audience. Things that worked in NXT: Adam Rose and Emma's bad dancer gimmick. They dropped the 5 count gimmick because they didn't need an awkward guy ripping off King Kong Bundy at the time. They need a guy to be muscle for Dolph Ziggler. And he was a massive dude who could fill that role. As for your last point, this sounds like bitching because they gave Steve Austin "The Ringmaster" gimmick off the bat and he suggested tweaks to make it work. This is the thing about attitude I'm talking about: They could have very easily just bitched about the shitty hand they were dealt and they'd have been released. Instead, they believed in themselves and what they were doing, saw what wasn't working, and suggested tweaks to make it work. That's not a failure on Creative's end. That is what separates the folks who are forgotten about from the biggest stars in wrestling. These folks would rather piss and moan than fight and prove that they want this shit. Sometimes that means suggesting changes. Sometimes, that means learning how to fucking yodel.

Early era NXT, yes that stupid stuff didn't translate. But starting with when K.O. and Balor came in, which was when Takeovers started drawing big, there were countless guys who didn't have to change anything and were over on the main roster. Then after so many botches, it became much harder to be invested the same way.

I am not sure if the exact dates, but for me personally I feel like the confidence was gone after they botched Bobby Roode. There were a few more callups after him where it was less excitement for what could be and more curiosity of how much they would screw it up.

After Ricochet and Black, that was when it seemed like it shifted to where nobody wanted to get called up because even they knew it would turn out bad.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by xrodmuc316 Early era NXT, yes that stupid stuff didn't translate. But starting with when K.O. and Balor came in, which was when Takeovers started drawing big, there were countless guys who didn't have to change anything and were over on the main roster. Then after so many botches, it became much harder to be invested the same way. I am not sure if the exact dates, but for me personally I feel like the confidence was gone after they botched Bobby Roode. There were a few more callups after him where it was less excitement for what could be and more curiosity of how much they would screw it up. After Ricochet and Black, that was when it seemed like it shifted to where nobody wanted to get called up because even they knew it would turn out bad.

Even though he fucked his own career up, I still think of the whole Velveteen Dream "Call Me Up, Vince" tights. I remember hoping that nobody took him up on that, because chances are they were going to do something to undo all the progress. Little did I know...

But yeah, Bobby Roode was a big one. So was EC3 (who never got called up). So was pretty much every tag team that came up from there, from The Ascension to War Machine.

[XL]

What do you mean EC3 never got called up? He had that 3 week feud with Ambrose where he was silent and got smashed.

[XL]

And Jesus, I’d forgotten how they botched that round of call ups with Ricochet, Black, Gargano and Ciampa.

[XL]

Though to be fair, it was totally the talents fault that they didn’t get over.