The WWE Future Endeavors Thread

[Destor]

theyre awful contracts. people shouldnt agree to them

[Gerard]

Originally Posted by Destor theyre awful contracts. people shouldnt agree to them

I want to see Vince geting fucked in court, badly. He would easily owe out tens if not hundreds of millions in all types of payments that employees are entitled to that wwe dodged over the decades.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Slik Probably the best take I've seen on the WWE releases tbh pic.twitter.com/oFzxUUhk6E — Alex Morrison (@Alex_m197) November 5, 2021

This is not a good take, at all.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Destor theyre awful contracts. people shouldnt agree to them

Yeah, no one forces them to sign.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Originally Posted by Darlene Izzy’s parent cheering on Lince Dorado’s release. Droford was right all along.

Fun follow up to this:

Don’t worry fam, I see you. @Cody_Starbuck soon. I’ll be at #silverspursarena today at 4 after my competition. Come down and talk. We gonna talk or what? pic.twitter.com/lal4T8xXDj

— Lince Dorado (@LuchadorLD) November 6, 2021

[GD]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon Fun follow up to this: Don’t worry fam, I see you. @Cody_Starbuck soon. I’ll be at #silverspursarena today at 4 after my competition. Come down and talk. We gonna talk or what? pic.twitter.com/lal4T8xXDj — Lince Dorado (@LuchadorLD) November 6, 2021

We should've listened to Droford. He was right.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Destor theyre awful contracts. people shouldnt agree to them

I typically loathe how much Destor usually sides with employers. However, given how fucking stupid all modern wrestlers come across in interviews, I'm going to agree here. So many of these people are fucking vapid morons and when it comes down to it, why feel bad for them for taking a contract they knew was shit?

Every time I listen to any of them speak as a "shoot," I die a little bit inside. Used to love shoot interviews but maaaaan. So many wrestlers just suck and deserve their shit contracts.

[Destor]

its not employers i side with its individual accountability. these guys see a shit comtract and decide that the deal is better than their current circumstance. and perhaps thats completely true.

but when the agreement they freely chose to agree to is followed exactly to the letter they agreed to im supposed to what? pitty them? the deal was fine as long as it was favoring them.

say what you will about him but Kenny Omega was offered a contract by the wwf and he didnt like the terms so he didnt take it and forged another path. he chose to take a risk and be accountable to himself.

the workers who chose to take a more secure route do so by agreeing to terms that have their own risks. these are those risks. in either case you're beholden to your choices.

there are no good guys and bad guys in this as long as everyone honors their agreements and these terminations dont dishonor that agreement.

[Destor]

and if that contract was broken in any way they should seel legal council and get the justice theyre owed

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol I don't know if I've ever seen you side with an employee unless they've been fired over "woke" reasons.

Anyways, we can champion Kenny Omega for "forging his own path" but we don't know what advantages/privileges he was working with compared to other workers who might have no other option than to take the deal--could be a matter of putting food on the table for some folks.

I know it's a huge ask--but why not just treat people like people and not basically try to imprison them via contract because you have the power to and it helps your bottom line? I'd say it's the people who deserve our compassion and understanding, not the multi-billion-dollar, publicly-traded company owned by the Tony Soprano of pro wrestling.

That said, I think most wrestlers have the choice to do other things, and thus deserve some of the accountability. But these things aren't as black and white as you make them out to be.

[Bad News Gertner]

Gotta say, I agree with Destor

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

You son of a...

[Destor]

i doubt you can site a situation i didnt side with individual responsibility for any scenario including wokism. im a very consistent person.

[Destor]

and i believe the way you should treat people is by honoring your agreements and demanding excellence. we all benifit from that. employee, employer and consumer.

[Destor]

Originally Posted by Lord Gertner of TPWW Gotta say, I agree with Destor

#metoo

[Damian Rey 2.0]

I certainly don’t feel bad for talent voluntarily signing shitty deals. The reality is that until two years ago that was the best bet. What I feel bad for is talent like Keith Lee getting cut off at the knees and not being given a real chance. But even then, he’s going to be fine and getting released was a good thing for him.

[XL]

Originally Posted by Destor and i believe the way you should treat people is by honoring your agreements and demanding excellence. we all benifit from that. employee Independent Contractor, employer and consumer.

[Destor]

that should absolutely be taken to court. hasnt happened in 50 years thpugh

[Destor]

(but there's nothing about being an independent contractor that makes anything i said an exclusion)

[Damian Rey 2.0]

Didn’t del Rio take them to court to get around his 90 day clause

[XL]

Originally Posted by Destor (but there's nothing about being an independent contractor that makes anything i said an exclusion)

Oh absolutely. However you seem to be applying very “real world” ideals to something as idiosyncratic as professsional wrestling.

My ability to do my job to the required standard isn’t as hampered by the powers that want me to do the job to the required standard. What about Keith Lee or Karrion Kross’ main roster runs suggests they were set up to succeed? You can easily say “they’re not stars”, “they never had IT”, “I don’t see it”, “they didn’t take advantage of the opportunity” but come on.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by XL Oh absolutely. However you seem to be applying very “real world” ideals to something as idiosyncratic as professsional wrestling. My ability to do my job to the required standard isn’t as hampered by the powers that want me to do the job to the required standard. What about Keith Lee or Karrion Kross’ main roster runs suggests they were set up to succeed? You can easily say “they’re not stars”, “they never had IT”, “I don’t see it”, “they didn’t take advantage of the opportunity” but come on.

Everyone wants to blame the office. Keith Lee and Karrion Kross were not that good. Keith Lee was brought in and immediately worked with Randy Orton. He was in the 5 vs. 5 match at Survivor Series. He got the Brock spot in the Royal Rumble. They tried to put him in top positions against top guys to produce top work. He’s not a young guy and his psychology is kind of spotty for what they want for a “big boy” (as Brock called him). His promos aren’t good either. Yeah, the company could have moved heaven and earth for him, but come on — at some point you’ve got to connect.

Karrion Kross got his chances too. They gave him promo time. Not the best push or presentation in the world, by any stretch. But for a guy that is supposed to be a “monster,” he isn’t that big and comes off as really generic to me. If he hit it out of the park and was really dynamic, he might have been given more chance to stick around. But again, I don’t know how many mountains you want to move for a guy who doesn’t do anything outstanding.

[Sepholio]

Much to the disdain of The Bastardly One, I too side with Destor here.

The contracts are shit. We get it. Don't sign it then. If more people refused to sign those contracts maybe WWE would be forced to approach them differently with better options on the table. But you can pretty much count the number of people who refused to sign it on 1 hand; as long as 99% of them continue to sign the shitty deal it's going to remain a shitty deal because there is no impetus for WWE to make it better.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

WWE changing their approach to hiring and developing talent likely means they won’t change their approach to contracts any time soon. They would have to be spurned by countless would be free agent signings and given the direction they’re taking their talent pipeline I don’t see that happening any time soon.

[Destor]

seems like we all agree the contracts are shit at least

[xrodmuc316]

Originally Posted by Destor seems like we all agree the contracts are shit at least

100% yes

[xrodmuc316]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 WWE changing their approach to hiring and developing talent likely means they won’t change their approach to contracts any time soon. They would have to be spurned by countless would be free agent signings and given the direction they’re taking their talent pipeline I don’t see that happening any time soon.

This is a great point. I was thinking about this, but if they are going to be recruiting young people to train from scratch from a pool of Collegiate athletes or Olympians, those guys historically get better contracts than guys coming from a pro wrestling background anyways, so they would be less likely to turn WWE down.

[Vastardikai]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect Everyone wants to blame the office. Keith Lee and Karrion Kross were not that good. Keith Lee was brought in and immediately worked with Randy Orton. He was in the 5 vs. 5 match at Survivor Series. He got the Brock spot in the Royal Rumble. They tried to put him in top positions against top guys to produce top work. He’s not a young guy and his psychology is kind of spotty for what they want for a “big boy” (as Brock called him). His promos aren’t good either. Yeah, the company could have moved heaven and earth for him, but come on — at some point you’ve got to connect. Karrion Kross got his chances too. They gave him promo time. Not the best push or presentation in the world, by any stretch. But for a guy that is supposed to be a “monster,” he isn’t that big and comes off as really generic to me. If he hit it out of the park and was really dynamic, he might have been given more chance to stick around. But again, I don’t know how many mountains you want to move for a guy who doesn’t do anything outstanding.

Something I mentioned on other forums, but I feel like it applies here: Keith Lee is two years older than Big E. However, Big E looks about 7 years younger than 35, but Lee looks about 10-15 years older than 37. Like, he looks like he could be Big E's father. Maybe that's the true "Power of Positivity."

Kross is just a generic fuck who looks like a bad CAW created by some edgy teenager. All of his personality is stored in his wife. I believe he was good friends with Drake whatever his name was, the Qanon Ref. Hence the whole Anti-Vax thing. I'm sure that made him a real peach to be around (there's been talk of his attitude much like Lee's). I wouldn't doubt that he felt like the only way they could use Scarlett was if she was with him, and WWE just decided not to bother with either of them. If that is the case, it would make him significantly dumber than Candido, Mero, and Morrison put together. But that part is speculation.

[Damian Rey 2.0]

What has been said about Lee’s attitude?

[Damian Rey 2.0]

And Lmaooo at noid. I’m sure it’s Lee’s fault for not connecting surely only winning 1 match out of a combined 7 matches against Orton, Braun and McIntyre, while losing 4 and having 2 no finishes, gave him every chance to get over and look like a huge star. And that was just his 2020 on TV And ppv.

In 2021, he traded wins with Kross, who was DOA his first night, and beat such huge names as Akira Tozawa and Cedric Alexander. The only name he beat this year that’s actually been somewhat protected or at least regularly featured is Riddle.

The only thing they seemed to have established was that Lee will have some moments but is mostly a jobber who isn’t good enough to beat those guys. That’s not doing a talent favors if you’re trying to get them over as a big name player.

Don’t understand how anyone could blame Lee for not succeeding given that he was never booked to be a big deal.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect These all sound like pretty sensible cuts. WWE are monsters if they hire everybody, but they are also monsters if they dare fire anyone they aren’t using or don’t want to use anymore. It’s crazy how quickly people got used to WWE never releasing anyone (even though they should have), and now act like it’s some crazy thing when what is essentially a talent search program cuts people. I think talent should be able to get out of their deals too, for the record. But acting like WWE are villains in this is a bit much. They gave this talent chances (in their own world) and they didn’t live up to it. Also, just because your profit margin is huge doesn’t mean you don’t have a budget. I hear Alvarez get on them for that every time this sort of things happen. If you want to cap your talent expenses at a certain amount, that is entirely your prerogative. It’s got nothing to do with your profit margin (other than you being able to afford it).

Here's the thing about that: the primary problem comes from using the excuse about budgetary cuts like your're hemorrhaging money, but then coming out with major profits when the financials come out. At the very least, it's a bad look when you cry poor, and wipe away the tears with way more cash than you made last year.

The optics of that are one of two things: you're either doing something unsustainable while trying to continue the illusion that you make record profits, or you just don't give a fuck about your EMPLOYEES* at all.

Originally Posted by hb2k Vince ixnayed her coming up with Kross, saying she was "too hokey".

Originally Posted by XL He was entirely right tbf. Could they not just have asked her to tone it down though?

Originally Posted by Weapon X minus the lip syncing, i thought she was perfect with kross in nxt. liked her more than him.

Yeah, Scarlett was too hokey, but dressing Kross up like MasterBlaster without the midget on his back was apparently "good shit!" They could have tweaked shit with them, because that was already a ready-made package that could've used polish. Instead, they have to completely fuck with everything, and when that didn't go over well, it's somehow the fault of the talent.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect Everyone wants to blame the office. Keith Lee and Karrion Kross were not that good. Keith Lee was brought in and immediately worked with Randy Orton. He was in the 5 vs. 5 match at Survivor Series. He got the Brock spot in the Royal Rumble. They tried to put him in top positions against top guys to produce top work. He’s not a young guy and his psychology is kind of spotty for what they want for a “big boy” (as Brock called him). His promos aren’t good either. Yeah, the company could have moved heaven and earth for him, but come on — at some point you’ve got to connect. Karrion Kross got his chances too. They gave him promo time. Not the best push or presentation in the world, by any stretch. But for a guy that is supposed to be a “monster,” he isn’t that big and comes off as really generic to me. If he hit it out of the park and was really dynamic, he might have been given more chance to stick around. But again, I don’t know how many mountains you want to move for a guy who doesn’t do anything outstanding.

The bigger issue here, though, is that they (WWE) have gotten to the point that they have deluded themselves into wanting instant gratification and THINK they can generate that themselves.

Let's not even specify anyone, let's make up a hypothetical amalgamation. Imagine Wrestler X has made a name for himself on the indys. And I don't mean as Flippy McKickpads, I mean a solid guy who can go bell to bell. This ficticious person looks like Ultimate Warrior in his prime, wrestles similar to Mr. Perfect, and has the gift of gab to rival Paul E line for line. They spend two years in NXT, and has a natural progression from nobody to NXT Champion. Has a following, and some catchphrase or some shit that nets him a unique marketable chant. These are all things you'd think would add up to an impossible to fuck up main roster talent that they can pad their ranks with.

Then he gets called up to RAW, and he suddenly wears coveralls to hide the physique. He gets the Sin Cara mood lighting. He gets no promo time. He jobs every other week in squash matches. Fans barely get a chance to do the chant. Complete 180 from what fans were witnessing for two years. Finally, Vince goes "nah, I don't see it", and this guy is out on his ass.

This isn't specifically about or limited to Kross and Keith, or anyone on this current slate of releases... but since they're here:

I've said from day one that *I* personally don't see the attraction with Keith Lee. I could never divorce him from being Shane Taylor's tag team partner in RoH. They were both generic big guys to me. However, I could clearly see Keith Lee was getting traction in NXT. Also, matches with Randy Orton shouldn't exactly be a barometer of success in WWE, since he does have a record of derailing pushes if *he* didn't like the match no matter what came before or after. They kepts trying to fuck with his gear, his gimmick, and his NAME instead of just letting him be.

As stated earlier, Kross and Scarlett were a package already. He wasn't the absolute best on the stick, but it wasn't like he was absolute ass, either. But the whole "If it ain't broke... let's break it" company mentality still won out, even though it wasn't the way most of us predicted (face it, most of you were like me and figured they would push Scarlett beyond Mars and Karrion Kross would get the Marc Mero treatment unless she got pregnant like Maria Kanellis did).

It makes no sense to try to "create new stars", while either simultaneously rejecting or actively fucking with all these supposed new stars. They start latching onto the barest handful of moneymakers and humping them dry for about a decade and then calling back people who have moved on to try to trade on the nostalgia that they themselves don't even actively educate their fans on. There's going to come a day where nobody knows who Stone Cold Steve Austin is.

It's easy to say about anyone who gets released everytime releases happen things like there was "nothing special about them" or "nothing of value was lost", but there is something of value lost. These people aren't supposed to be interchangable actors that can be plugged in anywhere and replaced like a car part. Hell, actors aren't even often interchangeable actors. Fans usually have shitfits if a show is recast or hilarity ensues with a big-budget film getting direct to video sequels with a very different person playing the lead role of who is supposedly the same guy.

WWE has very greatly distanced themselves from what they actually are so much over the last couple of decades. You have all the Vince-isms of "don't call it a belt" and a bunch of shit worded in ways that people don't actually speak. You have a maniac in the truck in love with sickening camerawork and a new toy in the last couple of years in the whole AR floating entrance shit. You have a bunch of people in suits who aren't even fans of the business they're in telling people who are supposed to be the product that they aren't suited to be the product because reasons. Or that someone who is so green that they could literally kill someone/themselves in the ring that they're good to go because they "look good on camera", or tell a top draw their voice is terrible, or a littany of other things. It's an unweildy corporate entity that seems to be actively trying to somehow simultaneously sustain their viewership, grow their profits, yet drive fans away by making them not care or invest in anyone because nobody will be invested into long enough for anyone to actively care about.

[xrodmuc316]

Kross was very much not keeping it simple. He was best as a rage filled mauler. The entrance and presentation, followed by just destroying people, it worked. Then they had him start cutting weird promos, and even worse once they brought him to the main roster they took everything that worked away. No Scarlett, no black and white entrance, then they made him a Samari, then a psycho, then released him, all within a span of about 2 months.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott Here's the thing about that: the primary problem comes from using the excuse about budgetary cuts like your're hemorrhaging money, but then coming out with major profits when the financials come out. At the very least, it's a bad look when you cry poor, and wipe away the tears with way more cash than you made last year. The optics of that are one of two things: you're either doing something unsustainable while trying to continue the illusion that you make record profits, or you just don't give a fuck about your EMPLOYEES* at all.

No one is crying poor. Having $200 million in spare cash doesn’t mean your budget is $200 million. Just because you are rolling in dough doesn’t mean streamlining your talent roster is inherently counterintuitive.

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott The bigger issue here, though, is that they (WWE) have gotten to the point that they have deluded themselves into wanting instant gratification and THINK they can generate that themselves. Let's not even specify anyone, let's make up a hypothetical amalgamation. Imagine Wrestler X has made a name for himself on the indys. And I don't mean as Flippy McKickpads, I mean a solid guy who can go bell to bell. This ficticious person looks like Ultimate Warrior in his prime, wrestles similar to Mr. Perfect, and has the gift of gab to rival Paul E line for line. They spend two years in NXT, and has a natural progression from nobody to NXT Champion. Has a following, and some catchphrase or some shit that nets him a unique marketable chant. These are all things you'd think would add up to an impossible to fuck up main roster talent that they can pad their ranks with. Then he gets called up to RAW, and he suddenly wears coveralls to hide the physique. He gets the Sin Cara mood lighting. He gets no promo time. He jobs every other week in squash matches. Fans barely get a chance to do the chant. Complete 180 from what fans were witnessing for two years. Finally, Vince goes "nah, I don't see it", and this guy is out on his ass. This isn't specifically about or limited to Kross and Keith, or anyone on this current slate of releases... but since they're here: I've said from day one that *I* personally don't see the attraction with Keith Lee. I could never divorce him from being Shane Taylor's tag team partner in RoH. They were both generic big guys to me. However, I could clearly see Keith Lee was getting traction in NXT. Also, matches with Randy Orton shouldn't exactly be a barometer of success in WWE, since he does have a record of derailing pushes if *he* didn't like the match no matter what came before or after. They kepts trying to fuck with his gear, his gimmick, and his NAME instead of just letting him be. As stated earlier, Kross and Scarlett were a package already. He wasn't the absolute best on the stick, but it wasn't like he was absolute ass, either. But the whole "If it ain't broke... let's break it" company mentality still won out, even though it wasn't the way most of us predicted (face it, most of you were like me and figured they would push Scarlett beyond Mars and Karrion Kross would get the Marc Mero treatment unless she got pregnant like Maria Kanellis did). It makes no sense to try to "create new stars", while either simultaneously rejecting or actively fucking with all these supposed new stars. They start latching onto the barest handful of moneymakers and humping them dry for about a decade and then calling back people who have moved on to try to trade on the nostalgia that they themselves don't even actively educate their fans on. There's going to come a day where nobody knows who Stone Cold Steve Austin is. It's easy to say about anyone who gets released everytime releases happen things like there was "nothing special about them" or "nothing of value was lost", but there is something of value lost. These people aren't supposed to be interchangable actors that can be plugged in anywhere and replaced like a car part. Hell, actors aren't even often interchangeable actors. Fans usually have shitfits if a show is recast or hilarity ensues with a big-budget film getting direct to video sequels with a very different person playing the lead role of who is supposedly the same guy. WWE has very greatly distanced themselves from what they actually are so much over the last couple of decades. You have all the Vince-isms of "don't call it a belt" and a bunch of shit worded in ways that people don't actually speak. You have a maniac in the truck in love with sickening camerawork and a new toy in the last couple of years in the whole AR floating entrance shit. You have a bunch of people in suits who aren't even fans of the business they're in telling people who are supposed to be the product that they aren't suited to be the product because reasons. Or that someone who is so green that they could literally kill someone/themselves in the ring that they're good to go because they "look good on camera", or tell a top draw their voice is terrible, or a littany of other things. It's an unweildy corporate entity that seems to be actively trying to somehow simultaneously sustain their viewership, grow their profits, yet drive fans away by making them not care or invest in anyone because nobody will be invested into long enough for anyone to actively care about.

I hate being pushed into the position where I am defending this company, but who is that perfect wrestler? I’m not saying the WWE doesn’t miss the boat on talent. They obviously do. But not everyone they miss is this giant missed opportunity either. I used to think that way, but it’s just so wrong.

Most of the people being released do kind of fit that Flippy McKickpads description. Or they’re just the shits in the ring.

There are people who do, somehow, get over in this environment. Drew McIntyre, the Street Profits, Bianca Belair. I would love for the WWE to be calibrated to my tastes as a fan. I’d love for it to lose the forced promos, terrible tropes and be booked like proper pro-wrestling. God knows I’m hungry for it. But people act as if it’s impossible to be good at your job in this environment.

[GD]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect Karrion Kross got his chances too. They gave him promo time. Not the best push or presentation in the world, by any stretch. But for a guy that is supposed to be a “monster,” he isn’t that big and comes off as really generic to me. If he hit it out of the park and was really dynamic, he might have been given more chance to stick around. But again, I don’t know how many mountains you want to move for a guy who doesn’t do anything outstanding.

This has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a while. Really tells you how far certain people will go with their hot takes. While I'm not a Kross fan, he did not get a fair chance. His presentation which made him special was greatly altered and he was separated from his wife/valet. Not to mention that his undefeated streak was killed off in a 2-minute nothing match on RAW while he was the champion. Then he was saddled with one of the most cringe-worthy gimmicks in recent times. For someone who rambles on about perception being key, this has to be one of the dumbest takes in a while. Absolutely cringe inducing stuff.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wade Keller is reporting that even supporters of Keith Lee are saying he did have a bit of an attitude problem, or at least a “perceived” one. Say what you will about his booking, but there are variables that go into how you are going to fit that environment that fans don’t see.

[screech]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott Here's the thing about that: the primary problem comes from using the excuse about budgetary cuts like your're hemorrhaging money, but then coming out with major profits when the financials come out. At the very least, it's a bad look when you cry poor, and wipe away the tears with way more cash than you made last year.

This is where I land on the issue too. If you cut someone because "you're not connecting with the crowd" or "creative has nothing for you" that's one thing. But to claim it's for budget cuts when you're making money hand over fist is, at the very least, shitty optics.

[drave]

Kross was never impressive, even in NXT. His entrance and music were move over than anything.


I strongly recall him beating Balor with that stupid ass forearm to the back of the neck. I don't buy the dude as some beast. They REALLY fucked him on the main roster with all the changes, too. Oh well, he wasn't that great, certainly not as good as Balor.

[screech]

I thought he was presented well in NXT [mostly because of the entrance and his laaaddyyyy, but anyway]. But as soon as he stood across from Jeff Hardy on RAW and I realized they're kinda the same size, I knew he was done. Or at least, there was no chance of recapturing whatever he had that got him going in NXT.

[GD]

Originally Posted by drave Kross was never impressive, even in NXT. His entrance and music were move over than anything. I strongly recall him beating Balor with that stupid ass forearm to the back of the neck. I don't buy the dude as some beast. They REALLY fucked him on the main roster with all the changes, too. Oh well, he wasn't that great, certainly not as good as Balor.

I am not a fan of Kross either. But to suggest that he got a fair shot on the main roster is utter nonsense. That’s the issue I have with Nerfect’s post.

[drave]

So direct your post at Nerfect? I didn't say anything related to your post.


It was painfully obvious he was never going to cut it on the main roster anyway.