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Old 09-17-2015, 08:29 PM   #19281
The CyNick
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I don't think I agree with this. I mean, I get your point -- building him would seem wise -- but they tend to fuck up Money in the Bank Winners. It might have been cooler to have Sheamus win the briefcase then disappear. Everyone would know he held it, but the next time you see him is when he's cashing in. Maybe it'll get a reaction that way?
I mean you could do that, but you going to tell Sheamus he's going to make less money because you want to keep him off TV?

Rollins was the last MITB winner, and he was used pretty effectively.

They had their share of bad MITB winners, but a lot of that was when they had the stupid brand split, and watered everything down. Thankfully nobody in power is suggesting another brand split.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:30 PM   #19282
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Cool stuff.
Seriously, why ANYONE chants Cena Sucks is beyond me.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:31 PM   #19283
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
But Sandow WAS used to his complete potential. He's a funny guy, who pretty much blows in the ring. So they put him with Miz, got months and months out of a storyline, did the blow off, and then that was it. They even managed to find Sandow yet another comedy angle to work, and it was one of those things that was funny one time, but not something you are going to get long term benefit from.

People dont seem to get that the spots on TV and Network Specials are VERY limited. Just being a steady feature on the Network Specials is a big deal. You have most months 7 matches per show. At least one will be a Divas match, one will likely be a tag. So you're left with about 12-15 spots. So where do you want them to go with guys? Whats wrong with where Cesaro is right now? He just worked with Kevin Owens, who is now in an IC title fight. Who's spot should he have?

The way WWE books right now is you have your top guys (basically Cena and Rollins right now), you have some part timers who come in now and then, but primarily for Mania (Lesnar, Taker, Trips, Rock, Sting, Jericho, etc), and then you have a glut of guys who get monthly programs and are on TV every week (Reigns, Ambrose, Wyatt, Ryback, Cesaro, Owens, Sheamus, Orton, etc). And then you have a few jobberish guys who are just on RAW to get beat up but are known characters.

I just dont get where people think some of these guys should be right this moment, unless you think they should with Rollins and Cena.
No, Sandow was not used to his complete potential, and I don't think you'll find many people (including the WWE it now seems) that will agree with your opinion on that. If the WWE admits they are wrong on a subject by pushing a guy that was used to his maximum potential, does your tone change on them?

I think what you're not getting is that people want to see better booking top-to-bottom on WWE shows. Some want to see the part-timers cooled off and other guys heated up. Others want the Intercontinental Title to actually mean something. Some want to see SmackDown used more effectively than it currently is, with guys being allowed to grow their personalities on it, instead of just doing maintenance television every week.

Your argument basically comes down to "The WWE is shit. Therefore you should like shit. Why do people want something other than shit? What do you expect to see if not shit?" People want it to be be DIFFERENT. You can't use the same to discredit fruit of change.

Cesaro has been booked HORRENDOUSLY. They gave him the big Battle Royal win...then had him lose almost every match he ever had with Heyman by his side. That's a great way to sell the guy as a world-beater, right? Ambrose has been booked terribly. He was getting hot, so what does the company do? Have him lose all his big matches and take away his top feud by putting him in a program with a guy returning off hiatus and needs wins himself. Ambrose then suddenly forgets that he hates Rollins for a few months.

Orton could have been white-hot earlier this year, but they turned him heel...then turned him face again. Brilliant. Owens could be a threat that invests people by scaring little kids that love Cena and thrilling fans that want his blood. Reigns has been given too strong a push with too little development, now his best chance is bad booking making him attractive to smart fans, etc.

You seem to like what the WWE does. That's cool. You're allowed to. But people aren't wrong for not being into a cold product that produces no real stars. It doesn't make them product of the dirt sheets -- you can feel how vacuous these shows are as you watch them, and you can pinpoint old, old rules of both wrestling and television that are very often being broken.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:32 PM   #19284
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Except Kevin Owens' debut match saw him cleanly and convincingly defeat the top face in the industry. And therein lies the issues. They give the guy a rub of a lifetime, then bury him in consecutive losses, and now he's going after a different title in an afterthought match.

I don't care ho long Vince has booking. That's not in any logical way a productive approach to trying to create new talent.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:35 PM   #19285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I mean you could do that, but you going to tell Sheamus he's going to make less money because you want to keep him off TV?

Rollins was the last MITB winner, and he was used pretty effectively.

They had their share of bad MITB winners, but a lot of that was when they had the stupid brand split, and watered everything down. Thankfully nobody in power is suggesting another brand split.
"Hey Sheamus, want to take some time off from television to visit family back home, appear in a movie or two, rest up, maybe do a few charity appearances?"
"No, fella."
"I'll make you World Champion at the end of it."
"Give me a sec..."

I'm not sure Sheamus gets paid by appearance either. He might miss out on merchandise sales if he's not hot on TV moving shirts or something, but he's not doing that now. Boom.

Rollins was booked better when he MITB than when he was World Champion.

I don't think you're in there to know.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:35 PM   #19286
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Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Except Kevin Owens' debut match saw him cleanly and convincingly defeat the top face in the industry. And therein lies the issues. They give the guy a rub of a lifetime, then bury him in consecutive losses, and now he's going after a different title in an afterthought match.

I don't care ho long Vince has booking. That's not in any logical way a productive approach to trying to create new talent.
You realize how ignorant that sounds?

He lost a 2-1 series against the TOP FACE IN THE INDUSTRY

IWC logic = He's buried

Amazing
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:37 PM   #19287
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You're completely missing Damian's point, CyNick.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:45 PM   #19288
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I only snipe at people who claim they know how to book better than the guy who turned a carny business into a nearly multi billion dollar empire.

People on here are complaining about guys like Kevin Owens, who have been on TV for 6 months. This would be like complaining that Rock didnt work Mania v Taker and instead was facing The Sultan. Thats my point. Which is a good one if I dont say so myself.
No, what people are complaining about is if you got The Rock when he was the hottest prospect in the business, then went nowhere with him instead of capitalizing on those moments.

I'm don't even believe that Kevin Owens is ruined -- but he's a lot colder than he was when he first showed up, and he's now going to go after a title after failing to win another one. Championships as consolation prizes aren't always the best idea.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:55 PM   #19289
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I personally don't give a shit where guys are on the card (I mean... some make more sense. Like Cena being on top because he's the draw. Having him open every show while far lesser guys headline is just ass backwards). Just... book them in interesting angles and make their characters intriguing.

And as far as the "Vince is the most successful booker/promoter ever therefore he is right and you're all wrong" thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Sometimes people are really good at something and then "lose it".

Vince is still a marketing genius and he's good at keeping the hype machine going. But booking-wise... I mean... come on. No one over the age of 10 who hasn't already been drawn in to just love pro wrestling regardless is tuning in for the compelling television that's being written.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:06 PM   #19290
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Wham, bam, thank you, fan.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:07 PM   #19291
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Just for argument's sake: I'm listening to an old JR podcast right now where he says he took criticism for signing The Rock initially. That surely changed fairly early, but it's not like everyone in the WWE knew from day one, apparently.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:09 PM   #19292
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I don't want Cesaro to be the World Champion right now. But I do want my fandom in him to be rewarded by seeing him stretch himself in ways that make me think "one day." Right now, I get hammered with this feeling that they want to see him fall flat on his face. You can say that as a viewer I am wrong, but it's only really professional wrestling that gets to say "You, the fan, are incorrect for feeling what you are feeling."
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:10 PM   #19293
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Tough Enough flopped. But Vince McMahon can't do wrong because he's a billionaire, right?
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:13 PM   #19294
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There is a lot of text and a lot of back and forward but the bottom line is that WWE TV is just not very good. It's repetitive, the angles are boring and can even hurt the people in them (see Rusev/Dolph) and yes, its smart to run your business geared towards kids who come out to see John Cena, he is great at that.

But the TV is boring and stale and has been for a long time. So someone, somewhere is not talented enough to produce good, compelling TV.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:16 PM   #19295
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I really don't care who wins and loses, I just want to get invested in stories and rivalries and have something creative and different for guys to feud over, rather than "I pinned you in a non-title match"

It is very frustrating as a fan, I used to love Raw and would actually look forward to it. Still love PPV's baceuse the matches are great, but can't even sit through Raw anymore...
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:21 PM   #19296
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i sit through raw and even smackdown every fuckin week and it has almost become a chore for a long time. not sure why i even bother with smackdown, but i do. they can't book a compelling storyline for anything. at least not one that lasts longer than a month. maybe a month. 2 weeks.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:23 PM   #19297
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CyNick swinging and missing in the point. What benefit did Owens receive after besting Cena in his debut match, only t lose every encounter thereafter, and is then cooled off into a heat less feud for a perceived lesser title? How is that booking progressive in any way? How would casual fan view Owens as anything more than a one hit wonder?

And it's not just Owens that's been a victim of the stop/start push. Ambrose, Wyatt, Cesaro, Ziggler, Rusev, etc. All these young, fresh, talented newcomers who can't get out of the blocks because Vince and his "greatest promoter ever" booking won't take a chance on pushing any of them and sticking with it.

How is Bray Wyatt not the top heel in the company? How did they fuck up a once incredibly refreshing, different heel? I mean, they know how top book right?
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:26 PM   #19298
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ok to be fair i fast forward through almost anything involving ryback/the miz/big show. but i watch everything else.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:31 PM   #19299
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Of course you do. What has any of them been involved in that would make you care? The Ryback comes out talking about the fucking Secret. This guy is supposed to be a hungry monster and he's getting all sensitive on us.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:33 PM   #19300
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Ryback talking about The Secret ranks just below Big Show blubbering in the ring.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:39 PM   #19301
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When they sent that big bastard out there to pour his heart out I lost faith in creative's ability to take advantage of the monster appeal Ryback had.

The way he was booked going against Punk was perfect. It's a shame they can't figure out how they did that the first time through.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:49 PM   #19302
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I missed the promo. I liked the idea of Ryback "waking up" and realizing the hero he could be to the people. Not so sure about the guy taking book recommendations from Oprah.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:51 PM   #19303
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Too much blather in this thread right now...
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:53 PM   #19304
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:53 PM   #19305
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:55 PM   #19306
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:56 PM   #19307
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:57 PM   #19308
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:57 PM   #19309
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Quote:
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Seriously, why ANYONE chants Cena Sucks is beyond me.
Beyond you in intelligence. Just because he's a good guy doesn't make him a good wrestler.

John Cena sucks.
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:59 PM   #19310
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More Emma-tainment please.
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:02 PM   #19311
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:09 PM   #19312
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Too much blather in this thread right now...
Who is the girl on the left?
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:09 PM   #19313
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Dear fucking lord.
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:11 PM   #19314
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Quote:
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Who is the girl on the left?
Looks like WWE Hall of Famer Lita
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:22 PM   #19315
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Oh shit, it is too. The hair threw me.
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:22 PM   #19316
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I didn't spend much time looking at Lita's face evidently...
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:30 PM   #19317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
No, what people are complaining about is if you got The Rock when he was the hottest prospect in the business, then went nowhere with him instead of capitalizing on those moments.

I'm don't even believe that Kevin Owens is ruined -- but he's a lot colder than he was when he first showed up, and he's now going to go after a title after failing to win another one. Championships as consolation prizes aren't always the best idea.
So who is at the level of The Rock that is being passed over? This will be good.
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:32 PM   #19318
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Quote:
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You're completely missing Damian's point, CyNick.
Enlighten me on his point

He said Owens got screwed by going 1-2 against Cena

How did Austin do going 0-2 vs Bret?

You know the difference? Austin > Owens. Not Vince is a terrible booker.

Typical of today's society, look to blame someone other than the dude in the mirror.
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:33 PM   #19319
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Quote:
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Wham, bam, thank you, fan.
Considering I was posting here 10 ago, I guess you guys were 0 back then. Or you like childish programming. Speaks badly of us all I guess.
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:34 PM   #19320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
"Hey Sheamus, want to take some time off from television to visit family back home, appear in a movie or two, rest up, maybe do a few charity appearances?"
"No, fella."
"I'll make you World Champion at the end of it."
"Give me a sec..."

I'm not sure Sheamus gets paid by appearance either. He might miss out on merchandise sales if he's not hot on TV moving shirts or something, but he's not doing that now. Boom.

Rollins was booked better when he MITB than when he was World Champion.

I don't think you're in there to know.
Guys get paid more for being on the road.
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