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Old 12-14-2016, 04:34 PM   #81
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Rumored card looks decent but not interested at all for Reigns vs Strowman. Doubt the crowd is going to care either since it's probably going to be worse in quality than Triple H vs Reigns and Strowman's push afterwards is probably going to end up like almost every other monster heel after their first big loss.

Only real issue with the card is the amount of big stars supposedly retiring since the WWE doesn't have an equal amount of really big stars on the current roster that could sell a Mania on their own. They'd be left with just Cena and maybe Orton as people who could sell a Mania on their own since they've done a horrible job overall getting the next gen of mega stars ready to take over. Should have started it on Mania 30 but WWE pretty much undid all the work from that event with the past 2 Manias.
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:40 PM   #82
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Am I the only one who thinks that this whole Miz/Bryan stuff is just going to lead to Bryan saying "We'll find out what a fighting champion you are at WrestleMania, when you defend the Intercontinental Championship against six of the most talented WWE Superstars alive today -- in a LADDER MATCH!"?

PHILLIPS: Oh my god, what a shocker!

MAURO: That's the match that ended Daniel Bryan's career!

JBL: It'll be action in Orlando.

DAVID OTUNGA: Look at that.
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:44 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Am I the only one who thinks that this whole Miz/Bryan stuff is just going to lead to Bryan saying "We'll find out what a fighting champion you are at WrestleMania, when you defend the Intercontinental Championship against six of the most talented WWE Superstars alive today -- in a LADDER MATCH!"?

PHILLIPS: Oh my god, what a shocker!

MAURO: That's the match that ended Daniel Bryan's career!

JBL: It'll be action in Orlando.

DAVID OTUNGA: Look at that.
Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED View Post
WWE Intercontinental Championship Ladder Match
Dean Ambrose vs. Dolph Ziggler vs. Kane vs. Luke Harper vs. Sami Zayn vs. Zack Ryder vs. The Miz (C)

I could see the Intercontinental Title ladder match carrying on being an annual thing. Bryan's last big moment as a WWE wrestler occurred in this very match, and he hates Miz for being a "coward" so booking him in one of these matches again plays into the story. Bryan announces 5 former Intercontinental champions as Miz's challengers, and the final entrant is announced as Sami Zayn who winds up being acquired in a trade with Raw.
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Old 12-14-2016, 05:01 PM   #84
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I'm glad that someone hasn't jumped over to the "Miz vs. Bryan is definitely happening" bandwagon.
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Old 12-14-2016, 05:04 PM   #85
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Bryan wrestling Miz actually doesn't even make sense given the context of their heat. Miz rips on Bryan because he CAN'T wrestle. And that's why Bryan hates Miz -- be broke his body for the fans, while Miz is conservative and does whatever he can to get ahead. If Bryan is like "Lol, I can wrestle, fool" it makes Miz right about Bryan being a coward.

The crowd will cheer and then ultimately be disappointed by the final match when they realize that Daniel Bryan is putting over The Miz -- story be damned -- but there is something grammatically wrong about the match taking place. I guess you could get there in an "unsanctioned" way, with Brie begging Bryan not to put himself in the ring with Miz, but that changes the context of Bryan's complains about The Miz not throwing it all out there as a wrestler. Why would The Miz suddenly be considered dangerous instead of a coward? There's something tone-deaf about the entire thing.
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Old 12-14-2016, 05:29 PM   #86
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Lesions in his brain. Fuck no Bryan shouldn't be wrestling, even if he takes zero bumps.
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Old 12-15-2016, 02:51 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Bryan wrestling Miz actually doesn't even make sense given the context of their heat. Miz rips on Bryan because he CAN'T wrestle. And that's why Bryan hates Miz -- be broke his body for the fans, while Miz is conservative and does whatever he can to get ahead. If Bryan is like "Lol, I can wrestle, fool" it makes Miz right about Bryan being a coward.

The crowd will cheer and then ultimately be disappointed by the final match when they realize that Daniel Bryan is putting over The Miz -- story be damned -- but there is something grammatically wrong about the match taking place. I guess you could get there in an "unsanctioned" way, with Brie begging Bryan not to put himself in the ring with Miz, but that changes the context of Bryan's complains about The Miz not throwing it all out there as a wrestler. Why would The Miz suddenly be considered dangerous instead of a coward? There's something tone-deaf about the entire thing.
Heel rips Babyface week after week for career being ended for working a fan friendly style

Babyface has enough and risks injury to fight the dastardly heel. Babyface has a pregnant wife that can beg him but to fight but he does anyway.

Heel wins in a physical encounter and either gains respect of face (maybe turns face) or heel cheats to win and rubs it in Babyface face for eternity.

Not hard to understand... For most people that is.
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Old 12-15-2016, 02:57 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
Rumored card looks decent but not interested at all for Reigns vs Strowman. Doubt the crowd is going to care either since it's probably going to be worse in quality than Triple H vs Reigns and Strowman's push afterwards is probably going to end up like almost every other monster heel after their first big loss.

Only real issue with the card is the amount of big stars supposedly retiring since the WWE doesn't have an equal amount of really big stars on the current roster that could sell a Mania on their own. They'd be left with just Cena and maybe Orton as people who could sell a Mania on their own since they've done a horrible job overall getting the next gen of mega stars ready to take over. Should have started it on Mania 30 but WWE pretty much undid all the work from that event with the past 2 Manias.
I would argue in Cena's run on top he's rarely had to carry a Mania. The only time I think he was the key focal point was 22 with HHH and the two fights with The Rock. Outside of that he's been in mostly random matches. I would say Taker has carried more Manias than John. I don't think Orton ever carried a Mania, maybe 25 with HHH. But that's debatable.

At this stage Mania is more about the time when the part time guys come back and interact with the day to day stars. That's why it'll be interesting to see if they keep putting Goldberg over Brock to create a new attraction.
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Old 12-15-2016, 03:23 PM   #89
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Quote:
A location has not been set for WrestleMania 34, though Minneapolis and Lubbock are rumored to all be in the bidding process. WWE is keen to sign Brock Lesnar for another year as they would still like to have the big WrestleMania moment where Lesnar puts over Roman Reigns on the grand stage. There is early talk, with the number of older superstars potentially leaving after WrestleMania 33 in Orlando, that it will be more important than ever to utilize the drawing abilities of John Cena, HHH and Randy Orton. Nothing has been set in stone for any of the three but an early idea was tossed around of John Cena vs Shane McMahon as a future potential dream match. HHH and Randy Orton would likely become involved in feuds that culminated in the event as well.

- Ryan Clark, tpww.net
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:01 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Bryan wrestling Miz actually doesn't even make sense given the context of their heat. Miz rips on Bryan because he CAN'T wrestle. And that's why Bryan hates Miz -- be broke his body for the fans, while Miz is conservative and does whatever he can to get ahead. If Bryan is like "Lol, I can wrestle, fool" it makes Miz right about Bryan being a coward.

The crowd will cheer and then ultimately be disappointed by the final match when they realize that Daniel Bryan is putting over The Miz -- story be damned -- but there is something grammatically wrong about the match taking place. I guess you could get there in an "unsanctioned" way, with Brie begging Bryan not to put himself in the ring with Miz, but that changes the context of Bryan's complains about The Miz not throwing it all out there as a wrestler. Why would The Miz suddenly be considered dangerous instead of a coward? There's something tone-deaf about the entire thing.
You're overthinking it.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:10 PM   #91
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Think CyNick has it right with the Bryan angle. Also with Cena carrying. Though I would add 23 in there with Michaels as well, which I thought was his best mania showing to that point.

I'm on board with Bryan v Miz and Cena v Taker for the belt. I'd hope Styles is given something meaningful to do.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:13 PM   #92
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And whoever said Goldberg should go over Brock is correct, assuming it's Goldberg's lead into taking over as the new special attraction and is replacing a departing Lesnar.

If Lesnar finally conquers Goldberg, I'd hope they use that to reposition Brock as the top guy, give him the belt again, and have him run thru everyone until he actually puts over a new guy to establish them.
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:32 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I would argue in Cena's run on top he's rarely had to carry a Mania. The only time I think he was the key focal point was 22 with HHH and the two fights with The Rock. Outside of that he's been in mostly random matches. I would say Taker has carried more Manias than John. I don't think Orton ever carried a Mania, maybe 25 with HHH. But that's debatable.

At this stage Mania is more about the time when the part time guys come back and interact with the day to day stars. That's why it'll be interesting to see if they keep putting Goldberg over Brock to create a new attraction.
Cena and Orton also had plenty of big name stars on the roster itself to carry a Mania before the WWE ever needed to worry about that or start dip more into part-timers because of the lack of new big stars.

The more they keep plugging in big part-timer stars to help sell a Mania, the more it become obvious at how bad the roster has become in terms of top star quality. Especially now that Cena and Orton are starting to move more into the part-timer territory.

Of the rumored card right now, only Reigns vs Strowman match has neither guy involved being a part-timer. Same in regards to the potential multiple main event matches.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sliksuke nakamura View Post
Quote:
A location has not been set for WrestleMania 34, though Minneapolis and Lubbock are rumored to all be in the bidding process. WWE is keen to sign Brock Lesnar for another year as they would still like to have the big WrestleMania moment where Lesnar puts over Roman Reigns on the grand stage. There is early talk, with the number of older superstars potentially leaving after WrestleMania 33 in Orlando, that it will be more important than ever to utilize the drawing abilities of John Cena, HHH and Randy Orton. Nothing has been set in stone for any of the three but an early idea was tossed around of John Cena vs Shane McMahon as a future potential dream match. HHH and Randy Orton would likely become involved in feuds that culminated in the event as well.

- Ryan Clark, tpww.net
Probably going to be Minny getting it or maybe Philly since they've been trying for the past couple of years. Don't really see the WWE going right back to Texas this soon considering they just had a Mania this year.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:54 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
Think CyNick has it right with the Bryan angle. Also with Cena carrying. Though I would add 23 in there with Michaels as well, which I thought was his best mania showing to that point.

I'm on board with Bryan v Miz and Cena v Taker for the belt. I'd hope Styles is given something meaningful to do.
23 was sold on President Elect Trump's hair vs Vince's hair. Everything else was a distant second and interchangeable.
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Old 12-16-2016, 01:43 AM   #95
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Besides Cena wrongly retaining @ WM 23, what was wrong with the actual match? Everything about it except the result lived up to the hype.
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Old 12-16-2016, 02:25 AM   #96
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I think Cena winning was the right call. Michaels was the old guard, and while he was fucking stellar I'd have put over Cena every time.

The match itself though is exactly what you want in a mania main event. Two legitimate superstars who are full timers putting on a stellar match.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:05 AM   #97
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So you're saying Shawn screwed Shawn?
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:23 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I would argue in Cena's run on top he's rarely had to carry a Mania. The only time I think he was the key focal point was 22 with HHH and the two fights with The Rock. Outside of that he's been in mostly random matches. I would say Taker has carried more Manias than John. I don't think Orton ever carried a Mania, maybe 25 with HHH. But that's debatable.
Interesting. Let's do a comparison for the fun of it...

Mania 13 - Taker carried it to the worst buyrate in Mania history - 1 to Taker, I guess.
Mania 20 - Taker's Deadman return played a part, but carrying would be excessive praise.
Mania 21 - Carried by HHH/Batista
Mania 22 - Carried by Cena/HHH, 1 to Cena
Mania 23 - I'd say they Taker and Cena carry equal weight to each other, both eclipsed by Trump.
Mania 24 - Carried by Floyd and Flair
Mania 25 - Carried by Orton/HHH (and not very far) - 1 to Orton
Mania 26 - Carried by Taker/Shawn 2, but again did a relatively disappointing number. 2 for Taker
Mania 27 - Carried by the Rock/Cena dynamic, 2 to Cena
Mania 28 - Rock/Cena, 3 to Cena
Mania 29 - Rock/Cena, 4 to Cena
Mania 30 - Authority Vs. Bryan, mostly HHH and Bryan with Orton and Big Dave as secondary players.
Mania 31 - Brock/Roman carried it.
Mania 32 - Taker/Shane - 3 for Taker

So in truth, we have 4 for Cena, 3 for Taker (one which did a mediocre number, one which did a flat out abysmal number, the other did well), 1 for Randy.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:02 AM   #99
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Did anyone really give a shit Floyd Mayweather was at 24? I certainly didn't....
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:01 AM   #100
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Feel like WrestleMania isn't really "carried" by anybody at this point. The name sells itself.
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:02 AM   #101
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You could announce a Bo Dallas vs. Curtis Axel WrestleMania main event a year in advance and people would still buy tickets to the show in droves.
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:09 AM   #102
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HHH probably carried the most Manias.
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:37 AM   #103
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Did anyone really give a shit Floyd Mayweather was at 24? I certainly didn't....
Got the most outside press leading in by far
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:37 AM   #104
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I'd argue Taker played a big role helping carry Manias shortly after the WWE started hyping up his streak as a big deal about Mania. Some years his streak match was the big thing selling the event and other years it being right there with the other big match or star being focused on for the event.

Like Mania 30 is all about Bryan as the main focus but the streak match was also right up there for carrying the event.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:18 AM   #105
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Remember that time when Snookie carried Wrestlemania! They should get her back again!
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:36 AM   #106
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I'd argue Taker played a big role helping carry Manias shortly after the WWE started hyping up his streak as a big deal about Mania. Some years his streak match was the big thing selling the event and other years it being right there with the other big match or star being focused on for the event.

Like Mania 30 is all about Bryan as the main focus but the streak match was also right up there for carrying the event.
See, I've always had this umming and ahhing about the impact of the streak, in that I'm not sure it ever proved to be a big deal outside of existing fans (until it ended). Mania 30 should have had a great build to Taker/Brock, but it really wasn't at all.

Taker's matches with Shawn and HHH for those four years added a big match backbone, no doubt, but the only time it was put in a position to truly be the big draw on the show, 26, did the lowest Mania numbers in seven years, and that pains me to say because that build-up was fucking outstanding.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:47 AM   #107
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You could announce a Bo Dallas vs. Curtis Axel WrestleMania main event a year in advance and people would still buy tickets to the show in droves.
Its a mild shame IRS vs Mr Pefect never happened at WM
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Old 12-16-2016, 11:08 AM   #108
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See, I've always had this umming and ahhing about the impact of the streak, in that I'm not sure it ever proved to be a big deal outside of existing fans (until it ended). Mania 30 should have had a great build to Taker/Brock, but it really wasn't at all.

Taker's matches with Shawn and HHH for those four years added a big match backbone, no doubt, but the only time it was put in a position to truly be the big draw on the show, 26, did the lowest Mania numbers in seven years, and that pains me to say because that build-up was fucking outstanding.
Blame the numbers on the stupid Batista v. Cena freaking "Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, Start" Championship main event. Nobody wanted to see that.
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Old 12-16-2016, 12:22 PM   #109
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I wonder if John Cena will hit another AA - that's an attitude adjustment - On Big E again!
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Old 12-16-2016, 01:56 PM   #110
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Interesting. Let's do a comparison for the fun of it...

Mania 13 - Taker carried it to the worst buyrate in Mania history - 1 to Taker, I guess.
Mania 20 - Taker's Deadman return played a part, but carrying would be excessive praise.
Mania 21 - Carried by HHH/Batista
Mania 22 - Carried by Cena/HHH, 1 to Cena
Mania 23 - I'd say they Taker and Cena carry equal weight to each other, both eclipsed by Trump.
Mania 24 - Carried by Floyd and Flair
Mania 25 - Carried by Orton/HHH (and not very far) - 1 to Orton
Mania 26 - Carried by Taker/Shawn 2, but again did a relatively disappointing number. 2 for Taker
Mania 27 - Carried by the Rock/Cena dynamic, 2 to Cena
Mania 28 - Rock/Cena, 3 to Cena
Mania 29 - Rock/Cena, 4 to Cena
Mania 30 - Authority Vs. Bryan, mostly HHH and Bryan with Orton and Big Dave as secondary players.
Mania 31 - Brock/Roman carried it.
Mania 32 - Taker/Shane - 3 for Taker

So in truth, we have 4 for Cena, 3 for Taker (one which did a mediocre number, one which did a flat out abysmal number, the other did well), 1 for Randy.
I wasn't looking to go back to the Attitude Era, I was only talking about Manias during Cena's run. My point was Taker's matches and the The Streak played a bigger role than the majority of Cena's matches.

In reality, you take away the program with Rock which covered 3 straight Manias, Cena has never really been the focal point alone. Whereas with Taker every year there was interest in his opponent challenging The Streak. But to be fair to Cena, most of the recent Manias are sold on a handful of matches vs one super match. So nobody really is put in the position of selling the show on their own. I just think if you went year by year, Taker's matches on a whole had more interest.
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Old 12-16-2016, 01:57 PM   #111
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Quote:
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Feel like WrestleMania isn't really "carried" by anybody at this point. The name sells itself.
This is very true
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Old 12-16-2016, 01:59 PM   #112
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Old 12-16-2016, 02:16 PM   #113
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Quote:
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And whoever said Goldberg should go over Brock is correct, assuming it's Goldberg's lead into taking over as the new special attraction and is replacing a departing Lesnar.

If Lesnar finally conquers Goldberg, I'd hope they use that to reposition Brock as the top guy, give him the belt again, and have him run thru everyone until he actually puts over a new guy to establish them.
My assumption is Lesnar is not going to increase his workload, so it comes down to can you continue with him beating random guys on the big sis Or do you try to do something different with him?

If Goldberg is positioned as having Lesnar's number, you can get several years worth of big matches out of him. Part of the decision would come down to what's the variance between their pay? Is one far cheaper than the other?

The risk with Goldberg is how many big matches can you promote where he just kills guys before people reject the act? There are more Goldberg matches I can see being intriguing than Lesnar matches at this point. Plus, I could see Lesnar trying UFC again.
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Old 12-16-2016, 02:18 PM   #114
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What that tells me it's President Elect Trump and Rock are major draws. Everyone else is the same range.
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Old 12-16-2016, 03:06 PM   #115
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I wasn't making a statement just found it interesting.
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Old 12-16-2016, 03:07 PM   #116
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Plus, I could see Lesnar trying UFC again.
Well he just got a 1 year ban.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:44 PM   #117
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Quote:
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I wasn't looking to go back to the Attitude Era, I was only talking about Manias during Cena's run. My point was Taker's matches and the The Streak played a bigger role than the majority of Cena's matches.

In reality, you take away the program with Rock which covered 3 straight Manias, Cena has never really been the focal point alone. Whereas with Taker every year there was interest in his opponent challenging The Streak. But to be fair to Cena, most of the recent Manias are sold on a handful of matches vs one super match. So nobody really is put in the position of selling the show on their own. I just think if you went year by year, Taker's matches on a whole had more interest.
But this would just be false. Cena hasn't been in the main event since WrestleMania XXIX when he was against Rock, but hb2k broke it down pretty obviously for you. If you want to credit Undertaker for carrying against Triple H, then you also have to give the nod to Cena for carrying against Rusev and Bray Wyatt as well.

"If you take away the Rock programs." That's like saying "If you take away Austin's WrestleMania programs with The Rock, he only really beat Shawn Michaels and had one great match with Bret Hart."

I'm also not sure the streak was entirely a good thing. I believe a lot of money was left on the table in order to preserve it and keep a worked streak looking impressive, often making sure that rising talent couldn't get a big win they needed in order to keep the wheel rolling. And it doesn't just extend to Undertaker. Generally guys take a dive at WrestleMania, and I can't help but feel there is something to do with win-loss records going on there, because there isn't an organic reason a guy like Mark Henry should beat Ryback at WrestleMania.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:04 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
See, I've always had this umming and ahhing about the impact of the streak, in that I'm not sure it ever proved to be a big deal outside of existing fans (until it ended). Mania 30 should have had a great build to Taker/Brock, but it really wasn't at all.

Taker's matches with Shawn and HHH for those four years added a big match backbone, no doubt, but the only time it was put in a position to truly be the big draw on the show, 26, did the lowest Mania numbers in seven years, and that pains me to say because that build-up was fucking outstanding.
In terms of sports outlets, ESPN and others usually talked about the streak match the most whenever they'd cover Mania. This was before the WWE started to pay to get more mainstream coverage.

Ever since the WWE started doing the multi-main events for Mania, feel like that is when its possible to talk more about multiple people and matches carrying a Mania regardless of their actual quality. You still have the big major match such as Mania 29 with Cena-Rock II but also the other main event matches bringing in a big chunks of interest as well.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:24 PM   #119
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Quote:
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My assumption is Lesnar is not going to increase his workload, so it comes down to can you continue with him beating random guys on the big sis Or do you try to do something different with him?

If Goldberg is positioned as having Lesnar's number, you can get several years worth of big matches out of him. Part of the decision would come down to what's the variance between their pay? Is one far cheaper than the other?

The risk with Goldberg is how many big matches can you promote where he just kills guys before people reject the act? There are more Goldberg matches I can see being intriguing than Lesnar matches at this point. Plus, I could see Lesnar trying UFC again.
I'd imagine the pay is likely similar. Assuming as much, there's lots of matches on the Raw brand for Goldberg. Off the bat, you have Reigns, Owens, Rollins, Stroman, if he stays put, Jericho.

That's a decent list to run through over the course of a year to keep Goldberg busy. Also could build to him v Cena as an inter promotional draw going into next year.

I think Goldberg has more mileage than Lesnar at this point. Feel like Lesnar doesn't have much higher to go as he's pretty much run thru all of his would be interesting opponents.
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Old 12-16-2016, 07:27 PM   #120
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Well he just got a 1 year ban.
It's retroactive to his last fight, no?

You know he's working with WWE till April at least. If he can fight again by August that lines up perfectly to get in a camp and fight.
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