When did WWE "lose" you? (If they did)
 

For years I had this allegiance to WWE that I would not let die because of all the great memories I had. Over time it got to a point though where they just had all of this power being the only game in town and they consistently either abused it or just got complacent. By the time AEW came around, I was already looking elsewhere to NJPW so the stars just perfectly aligned. I don't want this thread to get twisted. This is not a "haha WWE sux, AEW rulez" thread. I just have a very limited amount of time now for wrestling (had twins) so I only have time to watch what I really want to. I've found myself going to AEW over WWE and I think it has alot to do with how WWE treated fans during the "power era."

They lost me by:

-Constantly disparaging "internet fans," even though they're the most hardcore fans of the product.

-Building developmental stars only to have them be jobbers immediately on the main roster.

-Vince just being stuck in his ways on certain talent. Once he makes his mind up, he'll never change it. If you're a midcarder or a tag guy when he meets you, you'll likely stay that way. (EC3, Sandow, Morrison)

-The move to Fox just made it not feel like wrestling anymore.

If I had to pinpoint a moment where I just felt alienated from the product it was when Braun Strowman won the tag titles with an 8 year old. I was rewatching the event the next day with a non-wrestling fan and I was legitimately embarrassed to be a fan. She was like "what the fuck is this?" And I had nothing.

If WWE lost you, what did it? If you're still chugging along, what's making you stay?

in 2004 when I learned the undertaker wasnt actually dead and that it was a fake CGI hand coming out of his grave

My first exit was when I went to college, I kinda exited a lot of hobbies during that time, posted a lot less. I only really watched ECW occasionally because it was an hour and not filled with the stupid shit. (By no means am I saying that (WWECW was great).


I then got back in during the Nexus run for a little bit and then during "The Summer of Punk" but stepped out when Nash and Triple H got involved in that storyline.


I think Lesnar coming back got me fully back into it, I'd watch both Raw and Smackdown. I even came to a point where I fully looked forward to watching Styles, Ambrose and Cena on SDL. I started hating Raw at that point because they forcing the whole Roman push when they started the whole "Wildcard rule" where Roman could just show up on any show I pretty much tapped out.

But the lightning powers are real, right? Holding out hope.

I think I stopped watching after that Hell in a Cell with The Grind/Rollins. I had been hating it for a long time though. I did watch Mania last year but I haven't watched since. There have been many weeks in the past 15 years I didn't care to watch WWE but I would our of boredom/habit. I can't see myself going back until Vince dies.

*Ding Ding Ding*

This 100%

The most hardcore fans watched NXT on the Network and were invested in the NXT stars. Vince calling them up, assuming the ENTIRE fan base of Raw or Smackdown watched NXT, they after the initial few appearances Vince just got bored and gave up.

It makes it hard to get invested in anything they do, so if you miss a Raw or Smackdown, it's no big deal.

When Ryback left and I discovered 70's-mid 80s wrestling

I've always had a love/hate relationship with watching but covid has completely killed it for me. Rasslin' without the crowd is ridiculous.

i would say around mania 4, after the piper hogan feuds. 90s wcw was so much better, i just kind of watched raw then. post fall of wcw forced with the same wwe crap, was happy when tna showed up on fox sports watching them since. still watch wwe luke warm.

After the Punk fiasco went down.

When they started making everything the same (entrances, lack of pyro, etc.) and also when Cena would just win all the god damn time.


Things became way too predictable, which made them less interesting. Then so much stupid shit started with weekly "story lines" that was just so fucking dumb.


Started reading recaps to see if things changed, never turned back. I cannot recall the last time I wanted to tune in to a weekly show.

Also feels like there just aren't stars anymore.


So fucking sick of Oldberg. Couldn't care less. And Edge being the big story out of the Rumble and into Mania season is even worse. So boring.

wheb they started pushing guys who could never draw

Whatever mania it was where Triple H won the title at Rumble and defended against Reigns. Namely because you had a chance to go into Mania and do something completely different. Ambrose was there, he was over, and the company needed to elevate other guys. They didn't do that. They went Triple H, and forced a boring Reigns v Triple H match down our throats. Nothing changed when it was clear a change was needed. They just chugged right along with the same old boring stuff. At that point I cancelled my network sub after Mania, and now only watch 2 shows a year. And even then, I haven't watched a full mania since.

Not just WWE but wrestling in general lost me with the indy vanilla midget generation, yes they are all incredibles athletes but except for a handful of guys they can't tell a story in the ring, they just do moves after moves for no real reason at all. I had hope for AEW but even if I try a lot I can't get to like it and it, I try to get Omega but his whole gimmick seems to be that he does retard faces, there is at least 10 guys better than him in the ring, the whole show gives a 2000 wcw or monday night war TNA vibe !

I mean, that wasn't the question. But alright.

It’s been happening against my will for a long time, but I think I ticked over to consciously disliking the company in 2015. That Royal Rumble Match was just so amazingly out of touch and a deliberate attempt to tea-bag my soul.

I don’t know if they can ever get me back, but lately I’ve admired how much more logical and consistent they are than AEW. Raw is probably a lost hope. It’s just too long and too...Raw. I could get into shorter, focused, better shows they produce though.

Stopped watching a few months after WrestleMania 35. Was just a combination of so many things, though....

The constant buildup of guys and then not paying it off... Braun being built up huge and then not getting any belt until far past the time when I stopped caring and his momentum was gone.... Samoa Joe being built up and going nowhere (though part of that is injuries).... NXT guys getting called up and going nowhere....

The months of Roman/Seth vs Drew McIntyre/Bobby Lashley/Baron Corbin who were perhaps the dullest top heels of RAW ever facing off against some of the dullest top faces....

Meanwhile on SD Kofi had won the belt and it was a great moment but... immediately afterward it felt just wrong that this dinky little clapping tag team dude was the world champ, and instead of trying to move him away from that or make him more "legit" he pretty much stayed the same..... and I became uninterested in him too....

Becky Lynch was doing great but pretty much had no "legit" competition other than Charlotte so what she was doing was pretty much "ok, whatever"

So first I started to not watch live, and find myself fast-forwarding through like 90% of the shows.... then I just thought to myself... I could be using this time and doing other things that I enjoy much more.

And here we are. Stopped watching, don't really miss it.

Started watching AEW when it first aired, but quickly found myself fast-forwarding through everything except Chris Jericho and finally just said "meh, I think I really am just done"

WrestleMania 32. Probably the biggest push to cause a mass suicide since Jonestown. I've never looked back and I'm pretty sure it added years to my life.

I think it was the summer of 2017 or '18 when Braun Strowman was on a quest to trying to come close to murdering Roman Reigns on live television..............without getting in trouble of course. The fanbase was loving it and behind him 100%. They should have pulled the trigger and gave Braun the belt. But, it never happened. Instead, he fizzled out, got fed to Brock, and that was it.

Then I went to the G1 Supercard at MSG in 2019. Got a firestick and a subscription to NJPW World and really haven't looked back.

The constant camera cuts will prevent me from ever going back.

We were lucky enough to enjoy the attitude era.

Things started to put me off:
HHH reign as champion in the early 2000s.
Authority figures
Kid friendly
When punk left

The only thing I tune in for is to see who brick is gonna fuck up. Don’t even know most of the roster. They are simply not stars like we had before. WWE cant make legends like they used to.

The product has not grit, and covid19 has watered it down to gloried backyard wrestling with no large crowd to create atmosphere

When they stopped doing traditional Survivor Series matches that had the surviving faces take on the surviving heels at the end.

Like others have pointed out, my "hardcore" interest eroded over time with WWE's constant need to sign and waste talent - used to be from people who made a name on the indy scene just to warehouse them in a contract so they can't make noise elsewhere, but now with nearly everyone they sign - made way more obvious with the post-reality show style "contest" version of NXT we have now. It went from "OOOH! I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE X ON THE MAIN ROSTER!" and "HOLY SHIT!! THEY SIGNED Y?!? NO WAY!! THE PASTABILITIES ARE ENDLESS (breadsticks and salads)!!!" down to "Oh. Welp, let's see how they ruin *this* talent when they get called up.

The company has found a way to just beat all hope out of anyone. And that's the worst of it. Any time they seem like they're going to push someone, the reaction isn't "about time!" anymore, it's "yeah, sure, how many weeks is this going to last before this plug gets pulled?" WWE is rivaling Google with projects they kill off, but they don't have a website dedicated to listing wasted talent names like the "Google graveyard" does.

A secondary reason is semi-related to the first, in that once they have the idea that something should happen for business reasons, they'll do whatever shitty gymnastics to get there. Trying to invent a replacement for Rey Mysterio from whole cloth multiple times. Pushing Jinder Mahal on the transparent notion of gaining Bollywood market share. Hiring a bunch of latino talent to make a push for the Brazil market that went nowhere, and then dropping that idea and leaving that same latino talent to be lower midcard at best. Not letting Roman Reigns progress naturally and trying to make him the next top babyface of the company through hell or high water for the last few years. Trying to kill Daniel Bryan (figuratively, and possibly literally).

But thinking back, I think the decline for me started in the Smackdown Six era, when it seemed like people were getting over on SD and it was way more fun and exciting to watch than RAW, so then Vince and co. would devise contrived reasons for that talent to start appearing on RAW instead, or later, both shows (defeating the purpose of even having it separated) instead of putting the same care and attention into the talent and direction on RAW that the Smackdown wrestlers were getting.

Long time ago. 10 years ish.

This one is so baffling. Literally no other show in the world has anywhere near HALF that many cuts. How WWE decided to start doing that, who knows, but how they have continued doing it for so long is bonkers.

The brand split died this time the exact way it did last time. First they get rid of show exclusive PPVs, then they start letting people be on both shows, then they pretend there is some HUGE brand loyalty when people are on both shows and guys like K.O. and Miz get drafted back and forth every single year.

When that fat girl tore her asshole

I was never a fan on Smackdown, was always a Raw guy but (im from the UK so im not sure if its the same in the US) but once Raw started to go to advertisements every 5 minutes in the middle of a match then come back to the show, have a backstage segment interview and then back to adverts i just lost the appeal to stay awake until 3am watching advert after advert and then with so much TV time over the week and this just pushed me back. I still watch a PPV and catchup through YouTube results but i honestly dont have the time or patience especially to watch a product that has nothing to inspire me with.

It's been a gradual loss but it's taken place since WM31, a little more each year since.

I stopped watching SmackDown in 11/12 once they started turning every Raw into a "Supershow", it was clear nothing important would ever happen on SmackDown from then on, it would either be shown on Raw or if there was a banger of a match it would be done again on Raw.

Then Raw moved to 3 hours inb 2012 and many weeks it felt like such a slog to get through. At numerous points between 2014-16 I took breaks away from weekly viewing.

When the brand split came back in 2016 I decided to give it a chance and for a while I actually found myself really enjoying both programs. With defined rosters and separate creative teams, everything felt somewhat fresh and refocused. It didn't last long, I think Raw was back to feeling like Raw by the end of the year. SmackDown was dope for a little while longer but when they forced the Jinder title run, did an endless Orton/Jinder feud, jobbed Nakamura to him multiple times, etc. Bleh. So it was back to breaks and dipping in and out.

I watched the entire Road to WM 35 since I was going to the show and didn't see anything that made me want to go back to committing 5 hours a week.

I guess the first time was 2003, when RAW was super boring so I only watched Smackdown. Fell off completely in like 2006 I think. Jumped back into it in 2008 when The Gold Standard and I were roommates/radio co-hosts.

More recently though, I now watch the 90-minute Hulu cuts of the shows. There's no way I'm sitting through three hours of RAW every week. They haven't shown me anything that makes me want to commit to that. Been really enjoying Smackdown lately so that keeps me invested overall.

I stopped watching regularly at around 2016. Every once in a while I'll flip it on. I don't remember it being this bad. It's jarring. I feel like I'm gonna a get motion sickness watching this shit. I watched the Men's Rumble a couple of weeks ago and couldn't believe the amount of cuts. For the fucking Rumble! Which is completely unnecessary.

There's so many other options nowadays that weren't around even 10 years ago that there's little need to go back.

New angles would be better than more cuts.


Though I do see most of the cuts taking place to make the fake fighting look more realistic.

Fan-shot crowd footage of beatdowns is absolutely hilarious. The cameraman is acting like he's in a mosh pit with going up and down to follow the chairshots. It's horrendous.

I was briefly interested again in 2014-2015 but I feel like I liked guys like Mizdow and Adam Rose who had really funny gimmicks but amounted to nothing, meanwhile Ramon Reigns was having really boring main event matches every PPV.

It's sad that they need camera cuts to make their shit look realistic.

I also stopped watching Smackdown for maybe a year or two after Eddie Guerrero died.... forget what got me watching SD again....

It's definitely gotten worse in the last three years I think.

It made a neat idea (RAW Underground) totally unwatchable.

My interest lessened more and more as WWE continued to devolve into the soulless corporate brand it is now. Raw lost me a long time ago where I realized I was just watching it because it was a thing I was familiar with and it used to be good. But I wasn’t enjoying it and very rarely would I look back and say “I’m glad I watched that.” Smackdown was really good in 2016 with Shane and Bryan as the face authority figures with Ambrose and Styles feuding over the title. That actually felt fresh and fun. And NXT was putting together a string of Takeovers that were just incredible.

Now everything is just so bland and low stakes that it’s really not that fun to watch most of it.

Yeah. Then I go back to Shinsuke v Zayn in NXT and think.... wtf?

What I gather from this thread is that Raw went to 3 hours in 2012.

I thought that was what stopped me from watching. However I feel like it hasn’t been 9 years since I stopped watching...

I think it was just not being impressed with the new talent. They were all so green, and clearly needed more time.

It is really jarring to watch a WWE show again. Even with crowds it was so quiet, sterile and choppy.

Slow burn process...

-Around 2003, things seem to be slowing down a lot and went from "must see" to "I'll catch it if I'm in tonight"

-I spent the last 12 years working jobs that had me needing to be asleep before 7PM, so anything primetime was mostly ignored.

-Like others were saying, no real build up of new stars... or NXT building them up, and then getting the 'special' washed off of them till you couldn't give a shit anymore.

-I had still kept up through youtube and dirt sheets (well rumor sites like TPWW), but think the last 3-4 years I really don't remember anything that happen, so think that's were I really gave up.

Yeah, we're in an abusive relationship with WWE. We slog through weeks/months/years of shit to get the next Shinsuke v Zayn or Walter vs Dragonov matches we crave, or someone getting signed that we don't expect like Nakamura or AJ Styles or the entirety of UE because we think "hey, maybe they're turning a corner... they'll change!"

And then we get punched in the eye with more commercial breaks. More backstage segments. More camera zooms that enduce motion sickness. More camera cuts to "create" action where there already is action. More soulless pre-scripted promos. More dead-end pushes. More bullshit.

The worst part is, WWE is consistently made aware of what makes them bullshit, and at times, they even ADDRESS it. They hit the audience with "I won't hit you anymore, baby, I'll change!"... but it never goes anywhere.

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We'll change, baby, we swear

Similar for me. I have like an photographic memory of almost every WWE event before WM 17. But after the Invasion I was disappointed, went to school. Lost interest for a year or so... And now I really can't remember anything WWE does. I remember a few select Mania's like when Daniel Bryan won the title and when Seth cashed in. But everything else is a total blur especially from the last 10 years or so.

The last time was the best!

We got Raw Underground for a few weeks before it disappeared and was never mentioned again and...

Retribution, who are still around every week solely to burn time and be lame.

Vince totally pleased with himself :rofl:

Immediately thought of this

That's mainly what I was referring to when I posted it, but they've addressed shit before, either through commentary or directly.

Ironically, in spite of being the prime example the above feels a bit unfair.

I speculatively think the plan was for Vince to be preoccupied with the XFL and Hunter to basically get the keys to the kingdom.

The people who complained "recently" (relative - I'm talking months ago) about being "lied to" were probably actually not... the plan was to call up the NXT crop like UE and feature them and some of the lesser used main roster talent heavily in spite of not being Vinnie's cup of tea. Better to ask forgiveness than permission, since they'd be over and prob'ly moving merch by the time he'd look.

But then, full on pandemic mode happened, and live sports gatherings went away. Vince abandoned the XFL with that horrendously handled shitshow and derailed any tenative WWE plans that didn't have his consent because his attention was solely back on his baby. Back to physiques and overscripting and headset micromanagement.

Yeah yeah, she's prego in real life. Still dumb AF to take up time with this stupid shit.



Started off alright, but has def gone way too far at this point. Wonder what Bray's 3rd failed incarnation will be before he's future endeavored.



Why tho. Can we never see Shane wrestle again please?



Fucking YAWN already

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">wait seriously how does <a href="https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@davemeltzerWON</a> still have a juno email address juno has been dead longer than me</p>&mdash; Katie Vick (@WWEKatieVick) <a href="https://twitter.com/WWEKatieVick/status/866488082933178368?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 22, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I was going to say comedic horror guy but that's what his Firefly Fun House persona has mostly been.

He's already done the creepy backwoods cult leader, the creepy backwoods cult leader with supernatural powers, the comedic horror guy, and the horror film supervillain with supernatural powers.

Only thing really left is an Undertaker face-style persona with supernatural powers.

09 November 1997

He should be tugboat next

according to the timeline just posted by slik in the 100k thread, i would have dropped out briefly during the botched invasion, enjoyed the early/mid 00s otherwise quite well, then eddie died, wwecw was supposed to be awesome and sucked ass, then benoit happened, by then the ruthless aggression era ended and i stopped really giving a shit. only been really interested in some of the stuff punk did and the rise of daniel bryan, the latter being the end of "really interested"

2003. I figured my age was the reason why I lost interest.

Yes pretty much this . I’ll read the results and watch the PPV’s because I have the Network but I rarely ever watch the shows anymore . It’s just the same shit over and over and over without really any substance . The backstage segments I see now are awful. And it seems like half the show is centered around wrestlers and announcers trying to be funny and it’s cringe worthy . I probably stopped watching religiously around 2019. There’s still some cool shit like I do enjoy Roman Reigns’ heel run (or what I’ve seen of it ) but I can’t sit through 2-3 hours of the shows anymore

I have the Network and listen to a ton of podcasts and watch stuff like dark side of the ring to get my fix . Actually someone said something on a podcast the other day that resonated with me . He said the WWE doesn’t even try to create stars anymore because they want a company where everyone is replaceable . They don’t want people getting over and then leaving to make money elsewhere . They want wrestlers they can recycle as needed . 100% true

Only time I watch is after I read it first and something piqued my interest. That maybe happens 5x a year, MAYBE. Rumble I usually try to watch. Mostly NXT stuff I guess.

It’s so fucking bad though. Like forever.

Woops

:y::shifty::love:

Cancelled the Network in 2017 when they made Jinder champ.

WWE won me back though, based almost solely on how much of a disappointment AEW is. I flip back and forth on Wednesdays, I don't care to watch the little box during commercials. I see enough of AEW to know it's not what they promised it was going to be. I didn't expect them to look be up to the promises and hype, but I didn't expect it to fall as flat as it has either.

It is TNA 2.0. TNA had good things from time to time too, but mostly it was just a place former WWE guys could go to in order to squeeze more money out of the business and complain about WWE at.

That is the business model, and nothing proves that more than bringing in 50 year old Big Show who was not happy with his new WWE contract offer. It's WWE rejects, guys who would rather WWE treated them better so they could still be in WWE.

They don't even hide it, Jericho was mad his Mania match wasn't Huber up in the card.
Cody was not happy being Stardust, he wanted to be Cody.
Goldust didn't want to just be an agent.
Matt Hardy wanted to do more broken stuff and other gimmicks.
Ambrose was mad he didn't get a more serious run after he was a transitional champ.
The Revival were upset they didn't just get to outwrestle every team each week.
Sting was not happy WWE wouldn't let him keep wrestling until he was paralyzed.
Rusev, Dillinger, Neville, Swagger, they all thought they were giant stars, and they are all basically in the exact same position in AEW as they were in WWE.

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Funny how a promo can remind you of a more entertaining character, even if it was for one night only.

You're a weird guy. You work your hatred for AEW into every post even when the thread is completely unrelated to it.

WWE lost me me and hundreds of thousands of other viewers when they lost the biggest star of the last 30 years The Giant Big Show Paul Wight to AEW, which is a far and above better product than the WWE product. WWE is trash and losing the Big Giant Show is proof that nobody wants to watch that dumpster fire or even work there in front of the prerecorded fan base that they use because they can't even get a legion of fans who want to tune into every show and not troll the screen with pics of Chris Benoit and Kobe Bryant.

Nah, I completely agree. Way more appreciative of the WWE now that I’ve seen what a bad parody is like.

I won’t say that the WWE is good, but it’s a lot more professional and, dare I say, sensible. They’ve been proven right on a lot of talent. No one looks better in AEW than they did in the WWE, so don’t give me that “they use talent better” or “things mean more” crap.

The WWE lost me, but if Peacock becomes an international thing, they’ll probably get me using their services again.

Peacock is one of the best services for your $$$ if it ever does come that way and y'all get the same servings.


I've cancelled 2 other services because they had incomplete catalogs and was basically the only reason I paid for them.


Sans WWE, still easily worth it.

I stopped watching all together in early April of past year. I believe it was the Raw where the Viking experience or whatever they are called were rapping in the car.

Oooooh whatever happened to them? I forgot they existed!

Exactly. Shameful.

I think one of them is out long term with an injury

Ivar (the bigger bearded one and who women found to look cute in the Street Profits vs. Viking Raiders sports sketches) suffered a bad neck injury late last year.

Erik (the less cute one) became mostly irrelevant afterwards because of Vince's usual views towards tag wrestlers once one of them gets seriously hurt.

Although you have answers like Nerf's "when they made Jinder champ", that was essentially a last straw moment. WWE has slowly moved into the direction of "can't miss TV" to "can't watch TV" over a long, long period.

Don't worry: it's been a slow erosion for most of us. They'll ruin you, too. Give it time.

I slowly lost interest over many years, but the nail in the coffin for me was Wrestlemania 34.

AJ and Nak was disappointing and didn't have enough time. I saw what they did in Japan, I know what they're capable of.

An 8 year old winning the tag team belts with Braun, completely burying Sheamus and Cesaro in the process. How can anyone take them seriously ever again?

Being completely tone deaf on Roman Reigns. No one wanted Brock vs Roman yet again, but if they were oging to do it, just have Roman win and move the fuck on. But no, they got cold feet at the 11th hour again and had Roman kick out of 5 F-5's for absolutely no reason. Kicking out 5 times to then still lose the match completely weakened the F-5 for absolutely no reason.

So yeah. After that, I haven't watched Raw or Smackdown since, I just read up on things and move on with my life.

That was the singular moment where I said "I'm done", but the big things leading up to that were everyone being 50/50 booked into irrelevance and doing absolutely nothing with NXT callups.

Tough to really say:

I became a hardcore fan slightly before Wrestlemania 13 when the Austin-Bret feud started to gain traction. I remained a hardcore fan up until around Summerslam 2005 which I believe was the infamous HBK-Hogan match. I became a part-time fan after that, not because of anything specific, but because I was becoming busy with life. I remained a part-time fan for about another ten years. I can’t remember the exact moment in which the WWE “lost me,” but I seem to recall me thinking the following: What is there left for me to see? Bret came back, The Rock came back and fought Cena, Lesnar came back, Undertaker lost at mania, HBK and Flair retired, Hunter is gone, Kane is done, most of the guys from the Attitude era are gone. What’s really.......left?

I think a part of me also hung around as a fan longer than I should have because I was waiting for one more Wrestling boom......no matter how brief. “Show me one last time why I fell in love with this product” was my prevailing thought. I feel like I was able to experience this briefly from 2011-2014. The Rock returned, had his feud with Cena, and we also saw the emergence of CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, The Shield, The Wyatt Family, and Cesaro (who I think the WWE really missed the boat on since he was getting way over organically), and Ryback (another guy that the WWE screwed the pooch on by making him job to Mark Henry at mania and then turning him heel). The last PPV I watched was the Wrestlemania where Rollins cashed in during the Lesnar/Reigns main-event.

Again, the WWE didn’t really “lose” me with anything specific, but I just feel like I had seen everything that had been needed to see. Today, I only follow the WWE via YouTube clips and shoot interviews online. Bray Wyatt’s “Fiend” character, Matt Riddle, and R-Truth are the only characters that entertain me these days. Broken Matt Hardy was good a few years back but the WWE screwed that up it seems.

Although I transitioned to part-time fan after Summerslam 2005 as mentioned earlier, the WWE started to lose me a little from 2002-2004 when they botched all of their face turns for their top guys. I feel like the WWE didn’t really know how to convert their top heels into top babyfaces because they kept altering their characters too much. One thing that made guys like Austin, The Rock, Undertaker, and Jericho successful babyfaces is that their personna’s during their initial turns remained VERY similar to their heel personna’s. Only in time, after some time had passed after the initial turns, did their characters evolve into something slightly more fan friendly.

With guys like Triple H, Angle, Orton, Lesnar, Eddie Guerrero, and John Cena, I feel like the WWE tried to switch their characters and personalities WAY too fast upon turning. Especially in the case of Orton, the guy flat out flopped after Summerslam 2004 because either Orton or creative had no idea how to transition him into a top baby. Same with Lesnar in 2002. Just because a guy is getting some cheers, doesn’t mean you convert him right away so that you can sell merch. Let the heel character simmer until fans are literally creaming their pants’ for a face turn......like Rocky from Survivor Series 1998 to Backlash 1999.

The WWE’s over commitment to Triple H in 2003 also started to ruin things for me.