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More about presentation
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Hogan. Even my mom knows who he is and she knows nothing about wrestling.
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I have a trouble thinking in terms of absolute greatest, because there are too many metrics go crossover, so it is where you put emphasis. I put it on how good business is under you, because that’s the whole reason wrestling exists. It doesn’t matter if you tick all the other boxes — good look, good ring stuff, good talker, etc. — if people don’t give a shit, you aren’t clicking as a professional wrestler.
But that gets hard to dissect too. There are guys that drew everywhere as special attractions. There are guys who turned around shitty businesses. There are guys who did respectable business on top. There are guys who killed it on top in smaller markets, which is actually kind of more impressive in many ways — since you could argue the case that you’re more over per capita. But then there is the quality of and timelessness of your work. There is how much everything you do stands out. I don’t feel stupid saying names like Terry Funk, Ric Flair, Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan. The only name that I would throw out that hasn’t been said already, is maybe someone from Japan or even Jerry Lawler in Memphis. It feels like it’s own category though — maybe not GOAT. But there’s something about being so good you don’t need to go anywhere else that I feel deserves appreciation. |
I feel that as great as he is, it's easy to disqualify Terry Funk from GOAT. He is obviously a total legend and was awesome pretty much his whole career. He played his part perfectly always. The thing that knocks him off the top of the list for me is that he wasn't a MAJOR draw. Could you honestly say he was the reason 5-10,000 people went to the arena? As awesome as he was in Japan, those people would've been in the seats regardless, and likely the same for his NWA/WCW/ECW days. I think that he was on the cusp of MAJOR draw at times but ultimately was more of an attraction when compared to someone like Flair. Probably because the bulk of his career he worked heel and heels tended to your the territory's more than babyfaces who are clearly set up to be more successful in GOAT talks. All of that aside it's a real fucking shame that Vince didn't want to push Funk vs Hogan in the early days. It could've been so good.
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On the other hand, people from the outside world would not know Terry Funk because not everybody can become a part of pop culture. Somebody who was never a wrestling fan is not going to know who Terry Funk is, but they will know Hogan, Austin, Flair, Rock, Cena, etc. |
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I can definitely say Terry was a great draw. He wouldn't have gotten a 14 month run with the NWA title if he wasn't. I've seen numbers but I gotta find them. I know Funk vs Flair was the highest drawing WCW feud from 89 to 96 and he and Onita drew 41,000 and drew 28,000 on top of an IWA show |
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Fuck me, that's one helluva stat right there. Never knew that, but dayam! |
He's not a Hogan/Austin draw but he's a great one
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Haha I think it was something Meltzer posted a while back. I took the day off work to find this
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If I'm picking between Austin and Hogan I'm taking Hogan. When Austin got hurt during the "I did it for the Rock" it wasn't like business suffered. I'm pretty sure it actually went up.
You look at cards that didn't have Hogan on them compared to ones that did in the mid 80s and it's crazy. I remember in 85 Hogan fought August and Sept at the Philly Spectrum and both cards drew between 14-15 thousand fans. October had no Hogan with Andre vs Piper as the Main Event and drew like 7000. Hogan was back in November and it drew 13-14 thousand again |
dont have time to go into the weeds but Funk was absolutely a draw. no question. not a draw on par with hogan or bruno but there were absolutely sell out shows because funk was at the top of the card. not an all time great draw (an all time great everything else) but a draw for certain
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Now that the conversation has died off Hogan had 4 votes for GOAT here. Flair is the only other guy to get more than 1 vote (3.)
Clearly those are the top 2 in my mind with no question. Its a debate that will last another 50 years. |
What happens after 50 years?
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people who lived it will be dead and time will only remember them as a lingering phantom replaced by whatever act the people of the day have the largest connection to.
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Flair also did it in multiple centuries |
Flair is nowhere near as recognizable as Hogan.
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Flair's extra shit is the only reason I ordered the last WWE game, however long ago that was.
I remember not even finishing it because it was so bad. The Flair flair was cool AF tho. |
I think we all need to just face the fact that if you go by all the criteria set out already, John Cena is the GOAT. No single wrestle can be the top of every criteria, but if we look at a lot of them, Cena is up there as the best. Even if we don't want to admit it.
He's headlined two of WWE's biggest selling PPV's in terms of buyrates (Wrestlemania 27 and 29). He's a 16-time world champion. A 5-time U.S. champion. A 2-time Royal Rumble winner. 10-time Slammy winner and has ranked No. 1 on PWI's top 500 three times. He's was the main face and flagbearer of the WWE brand for close to 15 years, which is a major position to hold. Has done endless charitable deeds for major organisations. His name will only rise now to non-wrestling fans with his movie roles getting bigger and bigger, with roles in the Fast and Furious, Transformers and DC franchises. He's had countless match-of-the-year candidates and can cut some fantastic promos when it's not scripted. He may not be as relevant to a 30+ year-old as Steve Austin or The Rock, but to millions of WWE fans who got into WWE after 2003, Cena is "the man". I'm not the guy's biggest fan, but I do, having typed this post and thought about it, consider John Cena to be the GOAT. Top five of all time? Easily Cena, Hogan, Austin and whoever else... But while everyone's strengths and weaknesses counter each other, I think Cena's strengths puts him at the top of that list. |
too early to say imo. i dont know if his work will stand the test of time. not a lot of people rushing out to study cena tapes
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but he's very reasonably top 5
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my question for cenas legacy is exactly that: his legacy. he will be presented in video packages for eons as a huge figure but for those who lived his reign he was largely an after though for half the audience.
are the guys who will later go on to be the draws of tomorrow looking at his work for inspiration? what impact will he have on what comes out of talent going forward? we cant say. so until we can i can put him at the top of the list. too fresh. |
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i think freddy is the most talented lead man ever. the vocal range, the stage presence, the depth of his lyrics and the complexity of his arrangements. he's on a whole other level.
the beatles though...they changed the world. not only did they have an outlandish ammount of no.1s they spearheaded a massive cultural shift. theyre probably the most impactful artists in the last 150 years or more and im not talking just their music. im talking the whole of western culture. |
but i love queen more
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he's the most difficult talent to cover. you cant just replicate his sound even if you manage to hit the notes (and thats a tall order on its own)
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Also, I get bored by The Beatles.
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i like the beatles well enough but even if i didnt id have to acknowledge their impact. its just so immense.
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I don't deny their impact, just not my "cup of tea".
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I've been treated with Queen since I was a kid, as it was both my parents' favorite band. Now my mom still loves them, while father loves whatever's on MTV. At 68.
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Don't mind me, came here for the rasslin' but stayed for the spontaneous Queen chat.
Deacon is criminally underrated as a bassist and sound engineer. |
You should see my dad drunkenly trying to bounce to Snoop Dogg.
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This is an awesome post and I completely agree with what you just said, although I’d probably have to give the slight edge to Hogan due to his worldwide stardom beyond the world of wrestling. Still - one of the better posts and analysis’ that I’ve read on here. 1) Hogan 2) Flair 3) Taker 4) Andre 5) Cena 6) Bruno 7) The aforementioned gooks 8) Austin 9) Rocky 10) Goldberg Is probably how I’d rank them as well. (although I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing Goldberg dropping much further down) |
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I agree with pretty much all this, except I'd have Hogan as the GOAT. Maybe because WWE was more mainstream then the NWA was in the 80's and maybe because to me he was the main reason for the nWo's (and WCW business in general) being so big in the 90's. When i talk to people who don't care for wrestling, it's always "oh the stuff Hulk Hogan does." even if Hogan hasn't really "done" it for like 20 years lol Ric Flair's workrate is bar none light years beyond Hogan in the ring. But to me, Hogan is the face of PRO Wrestling over the past 50 years. |
the argument for Hogan is so strong i wouldn't try to debate anyone who put him at the top. if you asked 100 people on the street to name a wrestler Hogan would probably win even today with Rock and Cena having much more current cultural significance.
my preference of flair in the debate is his influence on the people within the industry even on a subconscious level. his impact on the nuts and bolts of wrestling etc but hogans star shines so brightly that i could never object to him being considered the goat. it would be ridiculous to try. |
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Don't think anyone really argues against Babe Ruth for MLB. If Trout ever gets on a winning team he might enter the discussion but he is with the Angels so no one has to worry about that. NBA is contested by two people with a few long shots thrown in every now and then. |
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I would actually go as far as saying that he may have surpassed Michael Jordan and Pele in the terms of being the GOAT for all sports. |
I give credit to Hogan kicking off the two biggest booms in wrestling history. The 80s with Hulkamania, and the 90s with the NWO.
The only guy that could've made that NWO angle blow up like it did by turning heel was Hogan. That led into the Monday Night Wars and the Attitude Era. Im not sure you get the 90s boom without Hogan turning. |
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Stings career is one night away from putting him in a whole other category. Starrcade 97 is imo what lost WCW the war. Hogan and Sting went out and delivered a big turd on a night that had more eyeballs than they ever had. had that night delivered on the (truly excellent) build the 90s could very reasonably went VERY differently. But it went the way it went and it goes down in my mind as the single most significant blunder in wrestling history and with it puts a great failure on Sting's resume. Conversely its Goldberg that kept WCW in the game throughout 98. Without him getting red hot when he did Id wager WCW would have collapsed much sooner without any baby face you could push. DDP got hot around this time so you might have been able to lean on him but we start getting into the weeds with what ifs at this point and this conversation is about what was and not what could have been. Ultimately I put Sting in the camp with the Michaels and the like. Great talent but never broke through to be one of the Legends amongst Legends. But he was so close. And Goldberg was 90% booking and marketing. There's a reason he burnt out so quickly and it also why he just baaaaaaaaaarely squeaks into the conversation. But the money generated in that time was fucking wild and I cant just ignore it because he was so mediocre in the ring. You go back and listen the those crowds in mid 98. It was a special kind of over few ever reach. |
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Should that not factor against him in equal parts? |
That is a good point. Which I why I think you could consider the guy next to Hogan is Cena. Cena consistently kept WWE above average numbers for years and years. Longer than Hogan or Austin/Rock combined. His longevity at the top, huge merch numbers and consistent house show/attendance has to be a consideration. The thing is with Hogan/Austin/Cena the fans all grew "tired" of them at some point. With Cena though it happened earlier rather than later. As time went on he eventually gained the respect of the internet fans and was consistently having great PPV matches. I know it's kind of crazy to say it because we didn't "grow up" with Cena and most of rolled our eyes for years every time we heard his music play, but he's in a league of his own in a lot of ways.
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bout time someone did
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You’re all wrong.
The correct answer is Danhausen. |
Love that Danhausen.
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Sting was never even that great in the ring. Maybe with the right people in the ring with him (flair). But on his own he's good, but not great.
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sting was as good as who he was working. sting didnt need be carried but he couldnt carry. either put him with someone who can work or dont expect much.
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sting is like silly putty. you rub flair on him youll get a flair match. you rub luger on him youll get a luger match.
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but there isnt really a sting match
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I've looked at Sting in ring the same way I look at Triple H for the same reasons Destor stated. He'll keep his end of the bargain.
It's a real shame that he blew out his knee at the Clash X |
i think H until 2000 or so was putting together really clever stuff. you could always tell his matches had clear influences (which is to say a bit derivative) but he put them together in fresh ways. i think after the quad tear in.. 01? he wasnt the same worker. a guy who didnt have his position would have struggled to hold that spot.
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which isnt to say he was bad. he was never bad. he just was out paced by a lot of guys on the roster.
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but after that run he used a lo more gaga and gimmicks.
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gone were the days of H vs X for 25 min telling a story through holds. he found ways to stay over though to his credit. despite his position in the company he kept working hard. he could have gotten away with be very lazy. a criticism i dont think anyone could fairly lob at him.
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but for my money he doesnt come up in the GOAT convo
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After his quad tear I feel like the combination of his injury plus putting on so much muscle mass really hampered his mobility and agility. I don’t think anyone in the 90s would ever accuse him of being slow and plodding, but his later run he just didn’t have it anymore, and it could often make for a long, boring affair.
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When I hear THE GOAT, the only thing that comes to mind first, is THE GOAT James Blade. One of the most charismatic people to ever step into a wrestling ring. This man on the microphone is up there with the greats and he is a good wrestler too. There's a reason he is THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME and ready for prime time!!!!! |
yeah. thats a good call. I'll go edit my post. :y:
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Check and mate
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we should prolly close the thread. the matter has been settled.
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The answer is Kenny Omega:
-Nobody has had as many 5+ star matches as him. -Legit main eventer in two promotions that were built on his back, essentially. New Japan had been around for years, obviously, but was struggling and he increased their business. They are still benefiting! -Was a bad promo, maybe, in his ROH days, but is now hilarious on the mic and delivers in a unique and eloquent way. “69 me, Don!” :lol: -Looks like a star. Was on billboards and fucking trains in Japan. You can’t buy that sort of publicity! -And he’s obviously great in the ring. No one has ever been smoother. Makes Kobashi look like a fucking brick. -Can work any style. Never saw Terry Funk do lucha. Austin may have sold more t-shirts with the WWE platform behind him. Terry Funk was pretty good for a territory rassler. Ric Flair is mainly remembered because of nostalgia and the WWE giving him a push in the 2000’s. Hulk Hogan didn’t have workrate and needed Vince to get over. The Rock has had a more successful movie career (so far), but think about it: Is there anything any of them they can do what Kenny can do? The answer is Kenny Omega. End (see what I did there?) of discussion. |
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I can remember when Noid wasn’t completely insane.
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Sting wins. That's a Sting match. |
I retract my vote for Hogan in this topic and apologize. It's Austin, Austin is the GOAT. There is no debate.
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Charlotte is the GOAT
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It's JBL
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