No one can top TNA though. There was a point in time where they had an amazing roster, and had a genuine shot at being a great alternative to WWE. They blew it, due to the sheer amount of wonky finishes. Then Russo came back and that was it for that.

I just can’t wrap my head around this style of thinking, lol. So many people are apparently into matches for matches’ sake, but then because they don’t end with a fake 1-2-3 they are super-pissed? I just don’t get it.

I’m not saying there aren’t bad finishes, by the way. There absolutely are. But the whole “it was such a great match until instead of Wrestler X hitting their finisher on Wrestler Y, Wrestler Z attacked them both” alludes me now.

That’s not meant as a shot at you, drave. I’m being sincere in that I don’t understand it and am just so far removed from that mentality now. I don’t get how it “ruins” a match. But I also don’t get why the internet cries about rematches when nearly everyone works the same and whether two parties have wrestled before has got nothing to do with the story either.

we want a clean finish. thats why a fuck finish gets heat. we want a winner. its integral to the human condition. like watchkng a footbal game end on a bad call we get outraged. its a human response that very well might be instinctual.

That’s the closest I can get to understanding it. There’s a sincere investment — almost a mark response (not saying that as an insult). It implies to me that kayfabe isn’t ideally dead.

I don’t get it in the context of being smart or how it affects the “quality” of a match to the diehard online contingent though. It seems trivial to me. But I also don’t have much time for conventional sports.

problem is now a fuck finish gives the office the heat since we know its all a work

It is so fucking anti-climactic. It's like an epic movie that has a shit ending that kinda ruins the entire premise of said storytelling in which I just invested my time.


It can make sense for a lot of scenarios, really, but when it is done to death so often it makes me not even wanna watch some match because "it won't matter in the end anyway". It made me, at the time a hardcore fan, not care as much. That then snowballed into barely tuning in, which is now not tuning in at all.

This is very true. :y:

Think this is the same as people losing in their hometown now, which is usually an extension of a fuck finish. The idea is heat, but it just doesn’t work now.

For clarity: I DO enjoy great matches. The storytelling elements (outside of a few hot promos) are shit and I've seen better acting in corporate FUN TEAM BUILDING videos :|

Even in the context of just a match, not taking into consideration anything from "the office" or "backstage whatever", it doesn't make sense to do it as often as it does.


If it makes sense, leads to something else, that's cool. It DOES work sometimes. It was just being done to the point where it left me less interested.

You need fuck finishes to build storyline, but as TNA and WWE have shown, too many can turn people off. Likewise, too many clean finishes, and the impact of a clean win is lessened. There needs to be a well thought out balance.

Eddie Kingston Got No Business F***ing Being Here (theplayerstribune.com)

Eddie Fucking Kingston, man.

i definitely think fuck finishes have their place but japan got by just fine without them for decades. "need" is a bit much for me. there should be a large number of clean finishes. they should be the norm and the dirty finishes should stand out in contrast.

early RoH was a masterclass in booking clean finishes effectively

Puroresu is a very different kind of product than typical western wrestling, though.The clean finishes make sense with the more grounded, real sports presentation. And ROH was heavily influenced by that.

I'm speaking specifically about companies like wwe and aew which rely much more heavily on story and characters.

again they have their place. my point is there are clearly paths that dont require it. in the south youll rely of fuck finishes x10 more than in the north east. doesnt mean we *need* them. especially no multiple a night

Yeah, not disagreeing at all on that.

You don't NEED fuck finishes but it can create some great drama or it can make you roll your eyes like you've just wasted time, see Dusty Rhodes at his best and his worst.

... every Thursday night here on TPWW!

if that doesn't make any f*cking sense please show up on thursday nights and i promise you it will.

I think there’s a link there; the fuck finish usually leads to a rematch. When you’ve gone 15 minutes on TV only to end via shenanigans you’ve often given the fans at least part of what they want. The law of diminished returns suggests that whatever the guys do the next time we’ve already seen a chunk of it. There are of course guys that people are happy to see over and over again (“Fight forever” if you will) but I don’t think I’m one of them. You know Owens and Zayn will always have a banger but I saw them have a banger in NXT with some good storyline behind it, I don’t need to see it repeatedly. The fuck finish is a heads up that I’m probably getting a second helping.

I dunno though, I don’t like long TV matches so I’m probably in the minority there.

People want closure, WWE overdoes (overdid? Not really watching or even reading results for them atm) and you know that Raw/SD are just adverts for the PPV.

AEW has done a solid job of having outcomes to matches on TV which in turn has actualy made me more likely to buy the PPV to see it play out once again or close out a feud.

WWEs lazy booking essentially made Raw/SD a failed advert for the PPV in my mind as it was so obvious.

TMZ getting worked

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">AEW star MJF calls mom &quot;dumb, disgusting slut,&quot; dad an &quot;old, irrelevant, piece of s**t&quot; after parents insulted him at AEW Rampage <a href="https://t.co/xerqIKHu8V">https://t.co/xerqIKHu8V</a></p>&mdash; TMZ (@TMZ) <a href="https://twitter.com/TMZ/status/1458162544825229314?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 9, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

It's hard to keep up with these minor league promotions

Watching AEW Dark. This Fuego 2 cat is holding everyone back. Years of progression in the wrestling industry undone. Truly disappointing.

Attention is being stretched further and it’s hurting everyone.

Another week, another Tony Khan fail :rofl:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Was nice of him to cut off a female so he could mansplain some nonsense to her.<br><br>Book women on TV, not YouTube, TV you fucking dork <a href="https://twitter.com/TonyKhan?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TonyKhan</a> <a href="https://t.co/9oFRWCv35F">https://t.co/9oFRWCv35F</a></p>&mdash; BRUHsuke -FTK- reformed internet person (@YourBRUHBroski) <a href="https://twitter.com/YourBRUHBroski/status/1458997653736464384?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 12, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tony Khan is asked about women’s wrestling, gives the most tone deaf answer possible <a href="https://t.co/mXA3rY9qCm">https://t.co/mXA3rY9qCm</a> <a href="https://t.co/nTB8V7hTMA">pic.twitter.com/nTB8V7hTMA</a></p>&mdash; Cageside Seats (@cagesideseats) <a href="https://twitter.com/cagesideseats/status/1458944263593644036?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 11, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He's an Incel just like most AEW fans. What do you expect.

Nah Tony Kahn is a fuckin legend, a savage and a real cool guy. Too cool for you. Suck it.

Careful Jordan, you keep talking like that you are going to get a contract from Tony Khan :rofl:

I too am disgusted by Tony Khan’s comments.

Very disappointing to know that he contributed money to the sham that is lady wrestling.

Over 110 Dynamites, there has only been a second women's match on 6 of them. You can't really act like you're giving women's wrestling a big platform if you're treating it like any other division split by belt over the years "time for the women's division match, time for the cruiserweight division match, time for the hardcore division match" etc

This doesn't mean you have to have a second women's match every week, but it's tough to view the women as an integral part of the roster when the booking suggests it's just a novelty division that gets its token one match a show.

Behind the scenes, I think they had good intentions for the women's roster. I don't think a company that doesn't care at all about its women's division would introduce a secondary singles title, nor go through the rigamarole of hiring and relocating numerous international talents including someone like Emi Sakura who they brought in primarily to assist backstage and train. They also clearly view Britt Baker as a huge star and have had her headline multiple shows.

But the actual booking of the division on television is a blind spot for the company. I don't know how much of it is the result of Khan trying to juggle priorities in managing a huge roster or if they are confronting a reality that there is a sizable chunk of fans who do not, and will not, ever care about women's wrestling. I mean you see posts like this on TPWW all the time. A lot of people here just do not give a shit about women's wrestling and no matter how talented a performer might be the default mindset is "meh, piss break time."

This is probably why there's a shitload of women's matches on Dark and Elevation that actually get time, because those shows are geared more toward the die hards. But you can't expect the TV-only audience to care about a division you treat as a novelty.

Just make Rampage an all-women's show if it's that important. It's too hard to give equal time to two divisions on the same show when they can't really interact physically with each other. It's either gotta be treated like an occasional special attraction or have its own separate show.

That would be a great idea if they wanted Rampage's ratings to completely tank.

WE know that’s what would happen. But apparently there are still people who think women’s wrestling is such a draw that it should get equal attention as the men.

Also, Rampage is terrible for the overall product. Short of cancelling it altogether, this would be the best use for it if they’re dead set on having a heavily-featured women’s division.

the reality is there arent enough women on earth who can work to go 50/50 and even if there were there's no demand for the product. WNBA, US Women's Soccer, UFC women's division post Rousey (see: novelty) are shining examples of women not being interested in women sports and men certainly arent. the entire push is a political statement as opposed to giving consumers a product they want to pay for. Ive been writing on this forum for well over a decade about how i wish women's wrestling was elevated in this country but elevated doesnt mean tokenism. and tokenism is all we have right now.

You can't force people to be interested in something. It's ridiculous. If you say it's just not good, you get shamed.

You get that a TON with Women's Hockey up here in Canada. Take away the Nationalism that the Olympics bring and it's just female playing a sport not as good as men can.