My money’s on Moxley

Thinking about it though, Moxley’s gonna be a similar problem.

I love Hangman, but don’t think I could justify Moxley doing the job in his very first match.

PAC should have beaten Page anyway. This is a pretty bone-headed situation to get yourself into. I hope they work it out, because I was looking forward to that match.

So is this gonna be our very first #lolAEW?

And for the record, I don't blame PAC. This is something they should've detailed and figured out before booking.

Yeah, unless PAC agreed to job and then backed out, this is all on AEW. Don’t book a match if you don’t have a finish.

They should have held some talks with Dragongate beforehand to find a way out of that situation. Its not like PAC had just won the belt and needed to legitimatize his status as champ.

PAC pulling a "creative control" this early probably also going to hurt the chances AEW will be as open in the future to working with talent who are champs elsewhere since last thing they need is a repeat situation happening.

It's kind of appearing that way to me, sadly.

I'd seriously just run the match and put PAC over. Emphasizing wins and losses is a good thing, but you can't be so fucking rigid that you book yourself into these corners paranoid to have any of your guys take losses ever. Page can cut a promo saying he let his "bosses" down and he's going to get back on the horse and en route to the championship, and the next time he gets PAC in the ring things are going to be different.

That they're cancelling this because they don't want Adam Page losing? It's really sending up some signals to me that I don't want to be seeing this early.

Haven't seen enough so I'm legit asking is Page big enough that losing kinda dulls his shine? Does a loss hurt him that bad? I understand if he's going to be their future centerpiece but does a clean loss to a guy like PAC hurt him to the point they have to cancel?

I like Page, and I think he's got a ton of potential, but I think he's a "in 3-5 years" sort of guy. He's getting better all the time and growing into himself, but I don't think he's the sort of guy you start building around right now. Omega is the obvious ace, and to be honest, Cody is probably more important to them right now. As far as singles babyfaces go, he's #3, tops. And that doesn't factor in their emphasis on tag teams and women. And even a guy like CIMA is probably more important right now.

I can understand why they wouldn't want him losing all the time, and this is his first match out the gate with the promotion, but I don't think him losing to PAC would be that big a deal.

It's not even listed yet.

Gotta say.... PAC is a dumb freakin' name..... but, they should just book him to win, as he should probably be one of their top guys out of the gate anyways.

It is in Australia, you dumb dick.

Glad I didn't already buy though. Re-considering it, because PAC was a big attraction for me watching.

Yeah I’ve seen more than a few people say they’re out now due to this match getting cancelled.

Between that and the price in the US, this looks like it is turning to a shitshow.

"creative differences" will be a recurring theme of AEW

With all due respect to Pac, compared to Moxley in terms of star power, there is no comparison whatsoever.

It's part of the reason I have a hard time believing he will go to AEW, because why would he go just to put over the AEW core? It's not for the money, and unless he is gonna be the top guy, he is gonna be just as unhappy with his booking there, and there he won't have his wife.

As far as Pac, after thinking about it more, I don't blame him at all. If AEW is supposed to be all about wins mattering, why would anybody want to do jobs? I mean Goldust will for his brother, but other than that you are gonna get a bunch of Rybacks who won't job unless they are getting just as much money as the winners so as not to devalue their worth by taking losses.

Pac is a bigger star than Page, so why should he take a loss?

This is what happens when you give talent the option of calling their own shot, you get guys who will take advantage of that for their own benefit.

I don't think this is that big of a deal tbh

It's unfortunate PAC backed out - but until the show airs and I see a product I am not going to judge AEW in a negative light. And even then, if the first show, or couple shows have some tough bits I am going to chalk it up to growing pains.


I do agree w/ the pricing being too high but I am sure I will spend the $ regardless.

That sucks about Pac, I was looking forward to seeing him in the big time
.

Rumor going around the net hints that it wasn't just "creative issues" for PAC's removal from Double or Nothing and more changes might be on the way for the event's card.

Supposedly AEW got hit with similar visa-related issues that plagued NJPW's recent US shows and all due to how strict the US government has become under President Trump for allowing foreign wrestlers to work in the country.

Also seems AEW's partnership with China's OWE is once again not as strong as previously assumed since OWE recently partnered with Canadian based SMASH and might be considering plans for their talent to work in Canada instead of the US.

I already have someone I am probably doing w/ this -- but if anyone is curious -- up to two different devices can stream a BR Live live event at once per their site.

So if any of y'all wanna pay $25 just team up to stream:

https://support.live.bleacherreport....r/category/101

I agree that there is no comparison to general audiences, or to whatever casual WWE audience there is, but we're talking about a hardcore wrestling crowd. The traditional "he's a star"/"he's not a star" metrics are kind of null and void with this audience at this point in time. PAC is someone that they should build as a star for whatever audience they hopefully grow.

It's not always about winning and losing when it comes to happiness. Moxley can make good money with AEW and probably get to cut his own promos and have a say over the direction of his own gimmick. And he probably will be treated as one of their biggest stars early out the gate. I don't have problems seeing him there at all.

I think you might be taking the wins and losses thing a bit too seriously. But then again, I think AEW might be doing that too. I also don't think it's a problem giving talent more autonomy over their creative direction. Wrestling has needed that back for a long time.

This is just bad planning and perhaps a bad overarching philosophy.

It's really cool you are willing to cut them that slack and spend that money. You're not wrong for doing so. It's just not a guarantee that other people will be as patient and forgiving as you. I'm not sure if I'm willing to pay even less than 50% of what you yanks are paying for this show now, and I've been highly positive about them. $50 is just way out of the question for me. Nope, not happening.

I accept that they are going to have growing pains, and if this were an injury or some sort of wanky contract thing that has blind-sided them, I'd be more forgiving. But if this is just them being dumb fucks and having an impossible planned finish, then I chalk that up to stupidity as much as I would WWE.

I do hope fans are more patient with them than they are WWE. Especially early days. But they're not entitled to that, nor guaranteed it.

I would be a bit more forgiving if there were visa issues, because that's administrative legal stuff way out of their hands. The OWE thing is weird, because I don't know why they would choose a small-time Canadian promotion over something going to get TNT exposure.

They need to announce something pretty big for Hangman Page, and they should make an angle out of the visa thing, with Page suggesting that PAC didn't file the right paperwork to get in the ring with him. There needs to be some sort of thread to this so there's the implication it's going somewhere.

And clearly Trrump knew AEW was working with China so hes like, "fuck them they can't work with China if China won't work with me on Tariffs" and is trying to wreck their promotion because Vince McMahon paid him off to do it. Someone call The democrats to launch a conspiracy hearing in Congress

I don't think anyone is suggesting it's an active agenda against AEW...

They still have a working relationship with AEW but likely will be working more often with SMASH in order to build up their North American exposure and minimize on-going visa issues from hurting those plans.

Someone like CIMA will be treated less harshly for visa stuff since he has a full-time contract with AEW unlike PAC. Same for Lucha Bros likely won't have any problems even though they will be splitting time with AAA since they have also full-time contracts in the US.

Plz no politics in the wrestling forum

Politics thread in casual often enough to keep me away from there

True, but Ambrose/Moxley is that big time star to the hardcore fanbase/crowd also. My point being is AEW would be crazy not to hitch their horse to him if they got him.

Pac is a great hand to have, he is amazing in the ring, but nobody would be surprised that he isn't instantly booked in the top matches, whereas we would all be saying what the hell is AEW doing if they brought Mox in to job to like Christopher Daniels or Jimmy Havoc.

I am truly excited to see Moxley and Havoc cut each other up, they need to have an Abudullah/Brody, or Cactus/Vader level rivalry. Just with lots more light tubes, thumb tacks, barbed wired and the like.

Don’t disagree with you on PAC, but I’m not sure I get where Mox coming in to lose to Daniels and Havoc comes from.

ITV will apparently be showing an AEW: Before the Bell special or something of the like. Their programming is not restricted to ITV4.

Apparently the match with Page wasn't the issue, but rather an upcoming match with Omega in September.

Plan was for PAC to beat Hangman, lose the DG belt sometime before September, then lose to Omega.

However DG office now wants to keep the belt on PAC through september which fucks up AEW's booking.

I don't really buy that. I mean, I'm sure that's the story, I just don't buy that as a good reason to pull the match. Just put PAC over and then don't do the Omega match?

I imagine their thought process is that they don’t want Hangman to job right away if it’s not leading to something for PAC.

I...get that. I just don't like it.

Exactly what I was thinking. Page is a full time guy. If they think he has a future, jobbing him to a guy who's going to be a one off doesn't do them any good.

It's not the end of the road for Page if he loses though, lol. He can cut promos about how devastating a loss out the gate is when he has his sights set on championship glory. It can build to an eventual redemption match with PAC when the DG belt isn't involved.

I'm happy that they want wins and losses to matter, but this was always going to be the problem: taking that too rigidly and booking yourself into corners because you are too petrified to have guys take losses. You can always bounce them back.

Just not there with them on this one. Them fucking around with their card has done more damage to my interest as a viewer than Hangman Page losing one fucking match.

Like, they don't need to book Omega vs. PAC either. Just don't book the match.

The biggest issue is it seems this has nothing to do with Page himself, meaning he didn't refuse to do the job. The company not wanting to book him to lose, draw, win by DQ, or have a no contest to the point they would pull the match a week out is just poor management.

Oh, I don't put this on Page at all. Nor PAC. This is really AEW's fault, as far as I'm concerned.

AEW is fine.

Seems its a lot more of their long term plans being wrecked because of Dragon Gate and no assurances Dragon Gate wouldn't ever do this again with their talent in AEW.

They've made it clear in a bunch of interviews that they value long term planning to avoid the problems that plague WWE's Creative and want to avoid repeating TNA/Impact's problems when it came to botching the development of Styles as their top star.

Supposedly their creative mindset is a lot similar to Gedo, who is well known to plan things out as far out as a couple years in advance and then tweak things to keep those plans on course.

I'm still not buying it. They just can't have PAC lose. Good? At some point he won't be Dragon Gate's champion and he can lose. They might even be able to get him under exclusive contract then.

Long-term planning is good, but this is just inflexible and lacks creativity. Cancelling a match in May because you can't put over someone in a particular match in September, even though it's not hyper-critical that be the scenario? This is just a mess to me.

Imagine the shit WWE would get if it cancelled AJ Styles vs. Seth Rollins this month because they couldn't put Roman Reigns over Seth at SummerSlam because 2K don't want Seth losing big PPV matches since he's on their cover or whatever. People would be bitching non-stop.

AEW has a lot of good will because they present themselves as babyfaces and they're the other and we all need something else, but they can't be pulling this shit all the time because they've booked themselves into corners.

FFS, just have PAC beat Page and then don't do Omega vs. PAC in September. Easy.

Why do you think you need to tell them how to book a show when you have no idea what their plans are.

Stop playing fantasy booker for a product that hasn't aired. D o N will be just fine. People need to chill more & bitch less.

Because they advertised something they aren't delivering and now I'm not going to give them my money. I'm the dude who started this thread with all the optimism I could muster. I want something different. This is WWE-type shit.

Apparently PAC vs Hangman happened last night at a show in England. PAC got himself DQed and then cut a promo saying he isn’t going to AEW.

If it’s not a work already, they could make a decent angle out of it.

I'd be fine if they turned it into an angle and actually delivered some stuff out of this.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And the next entrant to draw his <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CasinoBattleRoyale?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CasinoBattleRoyale</a> card is..........<br><br>subscribe now to watch the Buy In Live <a href="https://t.co/jROCViJ2e1">https://t.co/jROCViJ2e1</a> <a href="https://t.co/s4J0m7KLa3">pic.twitter.com/s4J0m7KLa3</a></p>&mdash; All Elite Wrestling (@AEWrestling) <a href="https://twitter.com/AEWrestling/status/1130979376131133442?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 21, 2019</a></blockquote>
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Nice! I am a fan and glad he landed in AEW, hopefully he gets over again, dude deserves a good run.

Not surprising seeing Shawn Spears in. He's hardly a huge signing, but the perception is that he was misused by WWE. It does make AEW's general "we're not going to take everyone" stance on former WWE talent pretty silly, but that was always the case. It's a good spot for him.

He's perfect for them honestly. Solid, over midcard talent that can help get talent over and be a useful hand. As long as they don't push every ex wwe guy to the moon, picking up the lesser guys here and there are fine.

Eh, I wouldn’t say AEW is at TNA level yet in terms of signing WWE castoffs. WWE haven’t released all that many people in the past few years.

If they sign TJP or some shit then yeah, that’s a problem.

He just opened his school too in Florida. So now AEW has more connections to things.

AEW isn't taking cast offs. Its taking defectors. Thats what makes this new territory. Highly talented performers in their prime back by real money and a seasoned creative.

When AEW starts signing "WWE rejects" solely to have them hog the spotlight or be put over at the expense of their own home grown and/or developed stars, then people can start to become worried over AEW's future.

Impact's problem was never them signing stars released by WWE but their constant habit of tossing their own stars to the side just to cater to whatever was the newest shinny toy dumped by WWE or old star(s) looking for an easy paycheck. Joe's star status in Impact took a big hit when they signed Angle and Hogan's notoriety with hogging the spotlight once caused a TNA title change to be delayed because he refused to be outshined at an event.

Curious about how they will deal with the lower card guys if they have true win/loss records. Like if someone has a 5-25 record or something, going to "look bad"... I guess they could always just have them have a winning streak if they want to give them a push.

I miss the days when you could say you had some matches in a made uo town and everyone went with it

Streaks would be the easiest way. Doesn't even need to be a pure win streak, just have to make the wrestler be on a hot streak of sorts to justify their rise in status.

If done correctly, you would have built up a new star and have the end result be meaningful. You also avoid a Curt Hawkins type situation where a jobber suddenly has gold out of nowhere or make their push feel like a big joke in the end.

Oh, definitely not. I'm just saying that the whole "we're only interesting in, like, maybe 8% of the WWE roster" is bullshit. If you could take half the WWE roster, Tye Dillinger probably wouldn't have made the cut.

He's a fine addition. It's a reasonable signing. I think stars would be a lot more valuable, but showing misused talent in a different light without giving them too much emphasis until it feels right is a good way to go about things.

They can choose to emphasize whatever statistics they want. That's the great thing about wrestling -- you get to book that shit and produce it in a way that benefits you. If a guy's win/loss percentage is impressive, use that. If they've never lost at all, use that. If it's that they haven't taken a fall in a tag team match, then use that. Just use whatever is going to make the point for selling the person.

AEW announced they will be crowning their first ever champ at a later date and the title match will be winner of Jericho/Omega vs. winner of Casino Battle Royale.

Alright, they must have someone pretty big planned for that Battle Royal then. Jon Moxley is probably going to be the name on the tip of everyone's tongue, but I'm hoping for someone from New Japan as a shocking reveal, given the apparent downturn of their relationship. TNT is a heck of a lot of potential exposure for New Japan talent.

I hope it isn't going to be Jericho vs. Hangman Page. Not a knock on either guy -- I want to see that program. I just don't really feel it for an AEW Championship story.

I like that idea a lot!

I still want the first match on Dynamite to be Brian Pillman, Jr. vs. Jushin "Thunder" Liger as a call-back to the first Nitro.

Cody Hall left NOAH earlier this year. He's a big kid, really young. Is he any good? I heard he has heat with some people in the industry, but it says he was a former member of The Bullet Club. Would he be a decent signing for AEW?

He's not great from what I've seen. Also has an attitude problem.

That's a shame. Got a great look.

Seems crazy that they would do a mega reveal on the free show before the PPV

But I guess it makes sense if they’re trying to attract customers

Cody Hall was Bullet Club's young boy, basically a jobber, except unlike all the other young boys he was tall and a shit wrestler. He's a much, much worse version of Hikuleo.

Yeah, I'm iffy on it. Feels very slapped together. They could have milked intrigue out of who is going to be the first champion for quite a while.

They could've. But on the other hand, they can now build a feud around likely Omega and whoever wins the battle royal.

I wouldn't be against Jericho beating Omega, only to lose to the first champ.

If Kenny Omega is going to be your first champ, which he probably should be, then he’s either got to beat a really good heel or an established name.

Probably just gonna have MJF win the battle royal

I've got a feeling that Hangman Page is going to be in that Battle Royal and the #21 guy is Joey Ryan doing a bit of a troll entrance, because they think it's funny. Page wins the Battle Royal. I do think that Omega is going to beat Jericho, but I can see Page beating Jericho at Fight for the Fallen and then facing Omega for the belt in Chicago. I hope they prove me wrong.

Not gonna lie, probably gonna have a good chuckle about how much bigger Billy Gunn is than the rest of the participants in the battle royal.

Is there any big name other than Moxley from outside AEW it could be?

Kind of seems weird to me that Glacier is just two wins away from being the first AEW Champion.

I hope Joey Janela wins and faces Jericho for the belt. That would be insane

Nah, it's got to be Moxley, right? They're going to need someone to hook people into the PPV. Moxley is about the only guy it can be.

Fuck that. Janela-Jericho would be ten times better. Janela is motivated. Ambrose has phoned it in for years. Give it to Janela.

Unless it is Punk in a Luchasaurus mask somehow.

CM Punk

You guys do realize they're trying not to be WWE-lite right?

The more I think about it, I guess I could see Jericho as inaugural champion despite what he said about Brock. Jericho beating a young babyface for the title via shady tactics would work but it would poop all over the idea that AEW is different than WWE

He's supposed to be somewhere else doing commentary, but if it's possible to get him there, I'm sure they would.

After watching the Before the Bell special, I'm thinking the same thing. Jericho presents himself really well in his segment on there. Omega kind of comes off in his own hype as rusty and like it's his match to lose. Jericho was setting up stories, introduced a new finishing move and really did set himself up as the heel to beat. His promo really sent the message of "I need to win," which doesn't mean he will, but I'm sure that's not accidental.

More pumped for Omega vs. Jericho having watched it.

I don't think Jericho being inaugural champ shits on what he said about Lesnar. If Jericho wins, there's likely a long termgoal at play to ultimately get a new guy over and give him the rub of beating Jericho and being the company's 2nd ever champion.

That's different than just putting the belt on Lesnar and having him defend 4 or 5 times a year with no plans of using him to make someone.

No doubt. Jericho is excellent. I think it just feels a lot better to have the belt on Omega, who is the obvious ace.

An upstart promotion needs to have their biggest star become their first champion. And Jericho is their biggest star.

Jericho is their most recognizable star. As much as many of us may love Cody, Omega, etc., the casual wrestling fan that these guys are going to be trying to galvanize aren't likely to know who they are. Or maybe they do. I dunno. But as far as name recognition, Jericho is their biggest chip.

I don't think anyone denies that Jericho is the most recognizable guy they've got. I'm not sure that's who you go with as champion though.

Personally, I'd have put Omega over him at DoN and then gone to Omega vs. PAC and Jericho vs. Hangman Page at Fight for the Fallen. Kind of books itself. Omega could have beaten PAC (presuming PAC wasn't still Dragon Gate Champion) and Jericho could beat Page with his wily veteran tactics.

I like the idea of putting it on Jericho and then building someone up to take it off of him. They’ve only got one chance to have a “first ever champion “. Make it a legendary name.

I think Jericho, Omega and Cody are the only three guys who are big enough deals to make the title seem like a big deal from the get-go. Anyone else would have to be building up their credibility AFTER winning the title which is a shitty WWE tactic I hate.

And considering Cody and Kenny’s positions in the company, they might see it as a bad look to make themselves the first champion. So Jericho is the perfect choice for me.

I’m not going to be upset if it’s Jericho, but I’d rather Omega for that very reason. You’ve got one first-ever champ. Omega is going to be wrapped up in this thing forever and a day, most likely. He’s a great choice.

Given that they're announcing the championship stakes, I think we'll get a glimpse of the AEW Title belt at DoN.

Here is a v small glimpse of the belt

https://www.tpww.net/wp-content/uplo.../aew-title.jpg

You obviously can't see much, but it looks classy. I'm sure that's the route they will go.